23. How to craft stories that sell and build your brand - Sam Neo

Do you want to know how to sell your products and services without sounding salesy? Or do you want to know stand out from your competition and become memorable to your dream clients? The answer is through storytelling, and I have just the right guest to teach you how to craft stories that sell and build your brand!

His name is Sam Neo, a trusted advisor to well-known companies like Samsung, L’Oréal and Prudential through his employer branding consultancy firm, People Mentality Inc – which was recognised as one of APAC’s Top 10 HR and Employer Branding consultancy firms.

Sam also runs Stories of Asia, an incubator he launched to empower the Asian community to find their unique voices through story telling. More recently, he launched StoryBuddy, an AI-powered storytelling tool to make storytelling more accessible.

So if you want to sell more and sell easily without sounding salesy, you will love this interview!

If you're currently in the process of building your brand on social media, listen in at 36:50 as Sam shares a common mistake that people commonly overlook online in transforming their online relationships into offline ones, plus how you can nurture so they can blossom.

Also, listen in for Sam's answers to the following questions:

• If your life is a movie, would what be the title? – 1:06
• You were in HR; how did you end up in employer branding? – 2:26
• Would you say in a nutshell, employer branding is about promoting a company to potential candidates, so they want to join that company? – 5:10
• What is your definition of a brand? – 7:15
• How does storytelling play a big part in creating trust towards a brand? – 7:45
• Could you give two examples, a corporate example and a personal example – 8:30
• Let’s say we’re running an agency, what is the process that you would go through to help them identify their unique brand story? – 12:54
• What makes a good story? - 18:05
• Is there a structure we can follow from a company’s point of view? – 19:01
• How do stories play a part in sales? - 22:51
• What have you done right on social media to build trust? - 26:50
• For someone listening who wants to start building their personal brand on social media, what would be a framework you can give them? - 29:06
• How can we turn online connections into offline connections? - 36:50
• How can we increase our likability? - 38:02
• What is one thing that you did right that led you to becoming highly sought after in your field of corporate branding? - 42:44
• Is communicating our personal brand and our corporate brand double work? How do we balance them? - 44:50
• Tell us about your new company Story Buddy – 47:00

If you want to keep in touch with Sam, you can reach him on Instagram @iamsamneo, or Stories of Asia @storiesofasia. You can also check out Stories of Asia here: https://www.storiesofasia.co/.

You can also check out Sam's brand new company Story Buddy here: https://storybuddy.co

Read these books to become highly sought after in your own industry -> www.pickericsbrain.com

Thank you for listening to this episode of #HighlySoughtAfter!

If you enjoyed this episode, please help me hit the ‘subscribe’ button if you’re listening on Apple Podcasts or hit the ‘follow’ button if you are listening on Spotify.

I would also love to hear your biggest takeaway from this episode! Here’s how: take a screenshot of you listening to #HighlySoughtAfter and tag me on Instagram. My handle is @ericgoesglobal. This way, I can personally thank you!

Transcript

Eric Feng (Host):

Do you want to know how to sell your products and services without sounding salesy, or do you want to know how to stand out from your competition and become memorable to your dream clients? If the answer is yes, you will love this interview.

Because my guest will share with you how to craft stories that sell and build your brand. His name is Sam Neo, a trusted advisor to well known companies like Samsung, L'Oreal, Prudential, through his employer branding consultancy firm People Mentality Inc., which was recognized as one of Apex top 10 HR and employer branding consultancy firms. Sam also runs Stories of Asia, an incubator he launched to empower the Asian community to find their unique voices through story telling. And more recently, he launched Story Buddy, an AI-powered story telling tool to make story telling more accessible. So if you want to sell more and sell easily, without sounding salesy, listen to this interview. 

Yo, Sam, thank you so much for coming to our studio. 

Sam (Guest):

Thanks for having me. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Now, I'm going to put you on a test, okay?

Sam (Guest):

Okay. 

Eric Feng (Host):

If your life is a movie, what would be the title?

Sam (Guest):

If my life was a movie, I'd probably call it S.A.M.

Eric Feng (Host):

S... Oh, S is smart because it's Sam. 

Sam (Guest):

Let me explain why. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay, go.

Sam (Guest):

S.A.M. can mean a lot of things, which captures my whole journey, right? I like to use this pun to say that S.A.M. stands for Slim Asian Man, so when you look at me you can remember the slim Asian man over there. But I started off from a very slim Asian man to become someone who started a movement. So PMI, People Mentality Inc. was actually started because it was really about movement. It wasn't about business, it was about me feeling frustrated that HR was seen as second tier function, it seemed like a dumping ground, basically. I always say, a corporate example is you can make it ops, you can make it marketing, comms, try HR, you're out. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Gosh. 

Sam (Guest):

So that's where I felt like, why is my profession being seen as a second tier function? And I wanted to do more. So that's what prompted me to come to the corporate world to start People Mentality Inc. To show that hey, if someone like Sam can do something beyond what people think HR can do, the rest of HR can do better as well. That was what started my entrepreneurship journey. So S.A.M for you.

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay. So yeah, back story, right? You were in HR?

Sam (Guest):

Yeah. 

Eric Feng (Host):

And how do you end up doing employer branding?

Sam (Guest):

I've got to go back to my university days, where I was starting marketing and HR. I started wanting to do marketing, like a brand manager of sorts. To manage brands, manage products. I thought it was pretty cool. I always wanted to work for companies like Nike, because they were very known for all this advertisements and stuff like that. But somehow opportunity didn't come, and I chanced upon an opportunity to do an internship in a HR role basically, that was in my third year. 

Then, because of that I realized that HR is a lot more purposeful than most people think. Most people assume that HR... What's the impression of HR, actually?

Eric Feng (Host):

Human resource manage people, pay us on time. 

Sam (Guest):

It's always about payroll, recruitment.

Eric Feng (Host):

Yes, correct.

Sam (Guest):

Things like that. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Correct. 

Sam (Guest):

But because of that I realized that HR is a lot more than just all this operational stuff. And one of my supervisors shared this with me, that why he found it so purposeful is because every time he gave someone an opportunity, for example, let's say he's sitting on a fence, should I hire, should I not hire. But eventually he give a goal for this person. This person, five years down the road, for example, come back and say, "Hey, thank you so much, back then, for giving me this opportunity. Because of that I became successful." It's a very heart warming thing, even though it sounds really small. But I think that sense of purpose, satisfaction is something that keeps HR people going. It's a lot of behind the scenes stuff that people realize, but that's where the purpose is.

Compared to, for example, marketing, no discredit to marketing folks. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah. 

Sam (Guest):

I'm doing marketing as well, right? A lot of things are more like fireworks kind of thing. Where it's really glam, really good vice for the moment. Whereas I feel that HR is a bit more long lasting. You're making an impact to someone's career or someone's life even, through the opportunity, through the engagement itself. So, I think that's where it started my journey as a HR person.

So, why HR to employer branding? I think it was by chance, where after I started my business, where I started off wanting to do everything within HR, and I couldn't find a niche. So I started off as this millennial HR thought leader, HR consultant. Because everyone comes to me, "Hey, you're a millennial, you talk about HR. Can I invite you to talk about millennial topics," basically. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yes. 

Sam (Guest):

Along the way I realized that it's not really a topic I'm very passionate about. But because it helps get a foot in the door-

Eric Feng (Host):

Correct.

Sam (Guest):

... so I just went with it first. Then I started thinking, "I need to create a brand for myself that's sustainable, that's a bit more evergreen, rather than like a fair." Hence I was thinking constantly, what fits my persona, what fits my skill set, what is a market need, essentially? And that's where employer branding came, from the fact that I did marketing, I did HR, combined together it's basically HR marketing essentially. 

So that's where employer branding came, and along the way I realized that I have a strong passion for it. Because I think along the way I enjoy story telling, engaging people, helping people to tell the behind the scenes stories where people don't know what's happening, to engage people internally, externally. So that's where, long story short, the employer branding angle came, after about two and a half years or so, I would say.

Eric Feng (Host):

Well, you teased out a lot of key topics, and of course today's interview is about story telling, right? So would you say that, in a nutshell, employer branding, it's about promoting a company to potential candidates so that they want to the company?

Sam (Guest):

I think that's one element of employer branding. And that's the misconception that most people think about, that employer branding is just external facing, it's just for hiring. 

Eric Feng (Host):

That's right. 

Sam (Guest):

Employer branding actually is both inside and outside. It actually starts inside. Typically, what I tell my clients, it's an inside out approach where, first and foremost, do your employees believe in your brand first. Do they believe that this is an authentic brand that they're proud of, to then want to advocate on your behalf? Without which, if you just focus on external, what happens is that, you know in [foreign language 00:05:58], right?

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay, let's explain. [foreign language 00:06:00] means the cat is let out of the bag, when people realize you are not what you say you are. 

Sam (Guest):

Essentially, yeah. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah.

Sam (Guest):

So typically you see, in a corporate setting, why do employees leave an organization in a very short period of time, let's say three months, six months, even a year, for example? That's because expectations really high. From an employer branding perspective, you oversell them. When they come in, what they see, the reality is always much lower. 

Eric Feng (Host):

That's right. 

Sam (Guest):

That get is essentially the frustration point where it leads to people leaving the company. Hence when we talk about employer branding, both internally and externally, it has to be able to be delivered by the organization, and it has to be authentic. So it doesn't have to be perfect, unlike what most people think, but it has to be authentic, it has to be something you are able to deliver, it has to be consistent. All these things are very important, because we all know, for a brand itself, it's so difficult to build. It takes months, it takes years, even decades to build. But one moment, one bad review on Glass Door, social media, one person spreading very loudly about the brand itself, can destroy the brand over night. And it takes a lot of effort to salvage the brand. That's why employer branding is not only external but also internally, and it starts internally, in my opinion. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it. Okay, so why not let's dive straight into today's topic, right? So first of all, we talk about branding. What's your definition of a brand?

Sam (Guest):

For me, I guess there's a lot of definitions, right? But for me, essentially it's about the trust. Do people trust this person, this product, this company. At the core of it that means trust, whether it's personal brand, employer brand, corporate brand. Because if I don't trust your brand, there's no way I'm going to engage you, there's no way I'm going to even give you a chance for me to listen to what you have.

Eric Feng (Host):

I love that. So brand equals trust, right? Now, then the question is, how does story telling play a big part in creating trust towards a brand?

Sam (Guest):

I would say story telling essentially, to me, it creates the emotional aspect of the trust element. Very often, when we talk about facts, let's say about employer branding, we create the trust from a very objective standpoint, rational standpoint, that I'm a subject matter expert. But if everyone is a subject matter expert, how do you stand out?

Eric Feng (Host):

Exactly. 

Sam (Guest):

It's then when you bring a bit of story telling to frame the message in a different way, to trigger some emotions that people can relate to. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it. So, what I'm hearing from you is that story telling bring out the emotional aspect of the trust. And we all know this, emotions are powerful. It actually drives decision making. Would you give us maybe two examples? One, let's give a corporate example, and then after that we give a personal example. Because there are two groups of people listening to you right now. There are the corporate leaders, and agency leaders as well. 

Sam (Guest):

Okay. 

Eric Feng (Host):

That means they're trying to build their own brand for their agencies. But we also have individuals like myself, and entrepreneurs. So maybe we start with corporate. What would be a good corporate example of a good story well told. 

Sam (Guest):

I think corporate examples, you can always think about from a CSR angle, right? Typically corporate stuff, they use the angle where it's about giving back. It's about purpose, it's about beyond the P and L. So in particular, you realize that a lot of corporates in these spaces they are detrimental to environment, for example your tobacco, let's say oil and gas, stuff like that. Typically they do a lot of things in the CSR space, corporate social responsibility space, because they want to show that despite they do all this, they try to give back to the society, the community itself. And that's a way to soften the damage, essentially. So that's one way they can tell a story, using that softer element.

The element that may not be directly related to their work score, but tying back to the brand identity. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay. 

Sam (Guest):

That despite me supposedly doing things that are harmful, I'm still doing good to offset, to compensate. And this is-

Eric Feng (Host):

But really-

Sam (Guest):

... highlighted in some sense. 

Eric Feng (Host):

... does it work?

Sam (Guest):

I guess increasing... in the past I think it helps in some sense-

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay. 

Sam (Guest):

... because CSR wasn't a big thing. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yes. 

Sam (Guest):

Increasingly, when the level playing field is now equalized, people are starting to see through this a little bit more. Whether or not you're authentic, whether or not it's true.

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah, because the last thing you want to do is use CSR as just a marketing tool, right?

Sam (Guest):

Absolutely, absolutely. 

Eric Feng (Host):

And as you said, that might backfire. 

Sam (Guest):

Yeah. 

Eric Feng (Host):

So how do we make sure that we're not seen that way?

Sam (Guest):

I think it really goes with the fact that how do you work with employers that advocate for all this story telling. Because story telling doesn't have to just come from one person or one specific department. Most people assume that for corporate stories, if they come from corporate comms, it has to be sensitized, you have to craft it very briefly, perfectly. It works in the past. But in these days, when we look at social media, look at corporate messages, people don't really like such things. It's more for your corporate reporting, typically. 

What has worked really, really well these days, when I work with clients is that you talk about brand advocacy, you talk about employee advocacy, essentially. These are people that truly believe and embody your message, that are out there being your spokesperson. You can really tell, right? From a corporate comms perspective, it's very rounded, very nice sounded essentially. But for employee point of view, it may sound a bit more raw. But you can feel the emotions, you can feel whether or not they truly believe in what a company is doing. And that's why it's so powerful, from one perspective, the emotion perspective.

The other perspective then, imagine, is it more powerful for one person to tell a story, from a corporate comms perspective, or is it more powerful to have multiple people across the organization, even outside the organization, telling your story? Obviously you want to have brand advocates, you want people to tell your story on your behalf, so it becomes more trustworthy. It becomes more authentic, and it becomes more relatable, essentially. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it. So let me see if I understand where you're going. We're talking about corporate story telling, right?

Sam (Guest):

Yeah.

Eric Feng (Host):

We're trying to tell stories so that we can get our candidates to be emotionally connected to our company. And one traditional way that we do that is by saying, "Look, there are all the people that we help. We are doing a lot of good work for society." But we both agree that if you overdo this, it just seems like a marketing tool.

Sam (Guest):

Yeah.

Eric Feng (Host):

So the better thing to do is, rather than have corporate comms tell the story of a company, we want all our employees to be able to tell the story of the company. It's like word of mouth marketing, right? Okay, so now let's dive deeper into that. 

Sam (Guest):

If I could just add onto that point first.

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah. 

Sam (Guest):

Typically, what we can consider doing is that comms can still play a role, have HR play a role, to shape the overall messaging. For example, the key value proposition to external stakeholders is let's say we have a family culture, we believe in a learning culture, we have a growth opportunity, for example. What you do is you give them a broad frame to say these are main topics or main things we want to advocate about. And employees then use their own lens to interpret, to then share their personal stories, to make this powerful and more rounded.

Eric Feng (Host):

So in other words, the company will set the direction of the message, that what do you want people to remember us by. And then our employees will then tell personal stories to reinforce that it's true.

Sam (Guest):

Yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay. Let's give an example, okay? Let's say we're running an agency. There's a lot of people listening to us, they are entrepreneurs, they are from insurance, real estate or network marketing businesses. So they have 50, 100, 200 agents under them. 

Sam (Guest):

Okay. 

Eric Feng (Host):

We need to help them craft an agency brand story first. What's the process that you go through to help them identify their story?

Sam (Guest):

I would say it all starts from having the clarity. From an employer branding perspective, we always talk about EVP, employee value proposition. So why it important? First and foremost, you need to stop and think to understand what are your strengths, what can you actually offer first. Because most people start from a point where, I just want to blast on social media. Just like anyone else, to ensure that I have a voice out there. But having a voice that's not clear creates confusion, becomes a noise, and doesn't attract the right people to you, essentially. And because essentially what you're trying to attract, it's not just the best talent, but the best fit talent. That one is really, really important. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah. 

Sam (Guest):

So typically what we consider is then first and foremost, look inwards to identify, have the clarity in terms of what your EVP is first. So that's usually a process where you do a bit of a basic audit, talking to employees, get things like an external survey, internal survey, to extract a little bit of the key highlights. For example, like I say it can be a learning culture, it can be great managers, it can be let's say flexible working hours, that people typically like. 

The next step you can then think about, so based on the context that we have, internally and externally, how do I frame all these key words, all this interpretation to make sense to the target audience. Let's say we talk about learning culture. Internally, that's something people like. How do you amplify it? Show you more stories, more examples, to showcase that there's really a strong learning culture. So constantly people get reminded that the learning culture is something they really value. It's human nature that we always complain about things that don't work out, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah. 

Sam (Guest):

Back in my previous company it was really good in terms of benefits, but people always complained about the small items. Why do we not we have this, what's the air con too cold, and stuff like that. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah. 

Sam (Guest):

But people don't leave. Why? Because there's a lot more better stuff happening. And people often forget about good stuff until you nudge them as and when there's an opportunity, there's a touch point essentially, to remind them all these good things that's happening. So that's one internally. 

Externally is then understanding the different personas of your target audience. For example, let's say I'm looking at tech people. The way tech people look for a job opportunity versus say a sales person is very different. A sales person, first and foremost, obviously will look at whether or not the opportunity to earn more money. The sales incentives and stuff like that. Tech people look for exciting projects they can work on. So a little bit different, in a very simplistic setting itself. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah. 

Sam (Guest):

So how you frame that learning culture would be very, very different. For example, for the sales person, a learning culture would say that okay, we constantly help you become better sales person, to constantly improve your target hitting, improve your sales ability, and with all these success stories through the learning culture, this is where this person became from a C to an A player, for example. So that's one example. 

From a tech perspective, it's that we have people who started as a very basic tech developer who can let's say only do the back end development. But because of learning culture, he could eventually do the front end, he became a leader within the tech team itself, and created a product that was what we need for that, for example. So you've got to frame it in a way where it makes sense to them.

Eric Feng (Host):

I love it. And you're looking at it from recruitment point of view, but we can also then look at it from a sales point of view. 

Sam (Guest):

Absolutely.

Eric Feng (Host):

Sorry, a business marketing point of view. That if my company culture is learning oriented, then I can now tell my clients that hey, we are constantly growing as a company, which means that our ideas will always be innovative, and will always be ahead of the trend. Is that what you're saying?
 
 Sam (Guest):

Yes, and essentially just to add onto Eric's point is that when you think of a brand, most people segregate your personal brand, employer brand, corporate brand all separately, right? 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah.

Sam (Guest):

So comms says that's corporate brand, HR does employer brand, individuals manage their personal brand. But it's wrong, because essentially a brand is a brand. Think about this, right? Recently there's the Air Asia saga, where the Thai CEO was throwing the F-bomb on the employee in the private town hall, and it was blasted across social media. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Oops. 

Sam (Guest):

Because of that, you see a lot of sentiments that people say, "Yeah, I'm no longer going to fly Air Asia," and stuff like that. But that was employer related stuff, how they go to the commercial side-

Eric Feng (Host):

Company, yeah.

Sam (Guest):

... company side, right? It's because it's closely tied, it's a brand. If you don't like a brand from an employer side, likelihood is that you no longer like their products. At least for the time being, that's the initial emotions that's triggered. If you don't like a specific tel-co dash, name for example, chances are if there's a job opening there, you tell your kid, you tell your friends, "Don't join, this company sucks." 

Eric Feng (Host):

Because I don't like the product, and therefore I don't want you to join the company. 

Sam (Guest):

Precisely. There's a big association, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

Oh my God. So that trust triangle is there, right? Which is the company, the products and the employees. 

Sam (Guest):

Absolutely.

Eric Feng (Host):

It's all related. 

Sam (Guest):

Yes. 

Eric Feng (Host):

And key word that joins all them together is how do I feel whenever I think about that brand? And now, what I have learned from you is, when it comes to communicating, being able to craft stories, step number one is first of all, know your authentic strengths. So, best is to ask your employees what those are, and then be able to find good examples to share it with the different target market. No, technical question. 

Sam (Guest):

Sure.

Eric Feng (Host):

We're going to do the actual story telling. First of all, what makes a good story?

Sam (Guest):

I'd say a good story is able to capture your attention throughout the entire story, and also evokes emotion. I think the difference between a story and a regular passage that you read is that a regular passage is just very technical, it's just dry, which is why we don't like to read textbooks typically, right? We like to read comics, we like to watch movies. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah. 

Sam (Guest):

Because it evokes emotions. It makes you excited, it makes you sad, it makes you frustrated even. So I think the key difference, between a story and anything else that's plain is really about the emotions that it triggers. That connects with you, that you feel that you're part of it. I think a good story teller is able to bring someone on a journey where it's not just telling their personal story, but bring you through a journey where, through my lens, you can see yourself. And you really feel that someone understands me. That is very important actually, when it comes to story telling. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay. So is there a structure that we can follow? Let's say for a company's point of view. A company is trying to tell its story, maybe again let's go back to growth and learning, right?

Sam (Guest):

Yeah, sure. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Maybe that's the unique selling point. 

Sam (Guest):

Okay. 

Eric Feng (Host):

How would you coach that guy to tell a good story about its learning culture?

Sam (Guest):

Okay, let's assume you're trying to frame this to a sales person, right? Let's say, how do I sell this role to this sales person. I think first and foremost, we start off with what we call a story gap. A story gap essentially is a pain point, a purpose, what's bothering that individual. For example, that sales person is constantly not hitting target, or doesn't know where to start. So we can start on the story by asking the person, what if there's a place where it can help you grow safely to become a better sales person, and eventually hit your target, that you can provide great things for your family, to provide for them essentially a comfortable life. Essentially addressing a few things, right? One is you're telling him or her that you can solve a problem that is bothering that person very strongly. Second thing is that you are giving the person hope as well. Painting an end goal, that imagine if you do well, this is what you can provide for your family, or even for yourself. 

Next part is then you can go and do what we call context setting, or building up to the story itself. So the first one, the story gap, something like a hook. How do you capture their attention? How do you make them bite? So the what's in it for them has to be very, very strong.

Eric Feng (Host):

For them to want to listen to that story.

Sam (Guest):

Absolutely. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay.

Sam (Guest):

That's the first part, because failing which, I'll just zone out, I won't be interested. I'll just, it's okay, I'll just pass kind of thing. So that's the first part. The next part is then you're going to substantiate your point. Because now you set expectations higher, right? The story gap is essentially, in Chinese we call it [foreign language 00:20:41]

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah.

Sam (Guest):

Please you, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

Please you. 

Sam (Guest):

Please you, make you feel like it's something I really want to find out more. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Correct. 

Sam (Guest):

So, next part is then how do you build up, how do you set the context, how to give more examples of stuff that shape that promise, essentially. So it can be in terms of okay, this is what we have. For example, you can share a story of how person A from the past developed to this 2.0 person they always talk about. So let's say Eric used to be a very shy guy, he used to be unable to sell anything for three consecutive months. But because of learning, he had a good mentor that guided him, that sheltered him. And guess what? Now he's the top sales after just two years, for example. How did he go through this whole process? He moved through A, B, C, D. And that's like the build-up, that's the context, that's essentially the whole [Gs 00:21:20] you're trying to sell to the person. 

And then finally, the last step is then how do you have that call to action?

Eric Feng (Host):

Correct. 

Sam (Guest):

Why? Because you can have a best kept attention, you can build up and convince the person, but you don't tell them exactly what you want to do-

Eric Feng (Host):

Yep. Then what's the point of the story, right?

Sam (Guest):

... Yeah, there's no action happening.

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah.

Sam (Guest):

It's just a feel good, like okay, thank you, I feel good, I feel inspired, but that's about it. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah.

Sam (Guest):

So at the end of it, you need to let them know what you want them to do. So it's about joining me, right? Let's make this happen together. I think at the end of it, typically, one of the ways that I always believe in is about how do you create that inspiration for people. I think in today's day and age, through social media, there's a lot of negativity involved. There's a lot of people trolling each other, a lot of negative comments. The Olympics, for example. Joseph [Schooling 00:22:02], or even people getting bronze getting shamed and stuff like that. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah. 

Sam (Guest):

So I think people are looking for positive energy. How do you constantly create an inspiration for them, how do you give them the positive vibes that okay, this is a place that I see some hope. And if I join this place, I feel that I will be somewhere positive, I can do good things. Not just for myself, but if you can frame it in a way where it's also for others. That's a plus point, essentially. 

So, if I can have three basic steps, right? First it's create a story gap. Second part is how do I build up to the whole story to substantiate the story gap. And finally a call to action. Three simple steps that you can consider. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Fantastic. Wow, that was a lot to take, and it's really good stuff. So far we have covered a lot about employer branding and recruitment, right?

Sam (Guest):

Yeah. 

Eric Feng (Host):

That means how you use stories to get a potential candidate to come and join us as a company. Now let's move into sales. 

Sam (Guest):

Okay. 

Eric Feng (Host):

How do stories play a part in sales?

Sam (Guest):

I love to share this simple example about myself. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Sure. 

Sam (Guest):

Because since I started my journey about four years ago, I became essentially like a sales person as well, as an entrepreneur, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

That's right, yeah.

Sam (Guest):

This story I always love to share is that in my first few years, even until now, I don't actively sell any services. I always focus on giving value, telling my stories about who I am, my journey, and basically thought leadership essentially on social media. And what happened was one day, I decided to just ping one of my followers. His name is Sean, he's a good friend of mine from Under Armor. Recently he just moved to Hong Kong, he got promoted. Back then, when he was still in Singapore, was I reached out to him. Just to say, "Hey, thank you for supporting me, and if you would like to catch up with coffee, let's catch up." There was no specific agenda to sell anything, but it's just like meeting a like minded friend, someone who has been supporting me, let's catch up.

Within an hour he replied. He said, "Let's catch up next week." So what happened was, a week later we met at his office. Café was downstairs, sundeck. We catch up. The first thing he said was this, "Hey Sam, you know typically when a service provider or vendor texts me or drops me a message, I usually just ignore. But you're different. Even though you're now a service provider, it's different because it seems I know you for a long time already."

Eric Feng (Host):

Why? Why does he say that? Why does he say that he knows you for a long time? 

Sam (Guest):

He has been following me on social media for probably about a year. He has seen my growth, my journey, my thoughts, and he felt that we could connect. So that was a big part of why he accepted my so-called invitation to meet up. And over the next 30 minutes or so, we chatted just like we are old friends. I know this about you, I heard about this, and we just chat a little bit. 

And about 40 minute later, he asked me this question. "Sam, can you tell me a bit more about what do you do, and how can I help you."

Eric Feng (Host):

How can-

Sam (Guest):

I help.

Eric Feng (Host):

... you help him, or how-

Sam (Guest):

He help me. 

Eric Feng (Host):

... Wow. 

Sam (Guest):

Yeah. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay. 

Sam (Guest):

So at that point in time I was thinking okay, typically Asians we feel very shy, we don't like asking for favors. But I think there's good value in asking for things as well. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Exactly. 

Sam (Guest):

So I just said, at that point in time I was struggling. Stories of Asia, what happened was that was about two to three months before Stories of Asia is going to be launched. That was probably somewhere in April, May or so, two years ago. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Very quickly, tell us what Stories of Asia?

Sam (Guest):

Stories of Asia is a storytelling kibitz that I created to help people find their voice through storytelling.

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay, got it. 

Sam (Guest):

So it's  [crosstalk 00:25:11].

Eric Feng (Host):

To be able to communicate their own personal brand. 

Sam (Guest):

Essentially. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay, got it. 

Sam (Guest):

And for corporations to find their corporate brand, essentially. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Fantastic, okay. 

Sam (Guest):

Okay. So back then SoA was about to launch in two to three months' time. We actually had a big corporate partner, global MNC which I shall not name, that agreed to be our launch partner. So it was supposed to launch at the office, back then before COVID we can launch there. They ghosted on us. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Oh, wow. 

Sam (Guest):

It was damn scary, because it's like I email, I called, I texted, don't see no reply. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Big global brand.

Sam (Guest):

Yes, yes. And I was panicking, because we thought our launch plan was going to look really bad. How do we launch it? So I told Sean about this situation. Immediately he said, "Let's do this together." Yeah. So, long story short, because of that we are able to launch SoA very successfully. I think it was about 50 private guests, because we launched it at the retail store. It was pretty cool. And I call him my knight in Under Armor. So that was the over-used joke that I used for quite a lot back then. Yeah. 

Eric Feng (Host):

I love it. 

Sam (Guest):

Yeah.

Eric Feng (Host):

Knight in Under Armor. 

Sam (Guest):

Yeah. 

Eric Feng (Host):

He loved it too, right?

Sam (Guest):

He loved it too, yeah. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it. So now, what you just shared is a story, a success story of... Actually it's a demonstration of a good story. You set up the problem, which is you were struggling in SoA, and your angle was to be successful, and you show us a whole journey of how you're able to patch that gap, through somebody that helped you, right? A knight in Under Armor. 

Sam (Guest):

Yep, yep. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay. So, I'm going to break down this whole entire learning, okay?

Sam (Guest):

Sure. 

Eric Feng (Host):

The reason why a high ranking officer in a big global brand is willing to help you is because he said that I felt like I already know you. Because he has been following you so much on social media. He followed your journey, he followed your thoughts. So tell us, what have you done right on social media to build in his trust that he would be able to come and help you.

Sam (Guest):

I think the first thing is really about not selling. 

Eric Feng (Host):

On social media.

Sam (Guest):

On social media. Not selling a product, not selling services. I think that is one part that created a strong brand for me, where I attracted a lot of like-minded people to me. What I was selling was about my ideology, was about my values, was about my beliefs, essentially. Who Sam Neo stands for. So, because of that, he got attracted to me, he believed in who I am, we connected, and that opened up opportunities for the conversation. Because imagine if I started just selling, okay I do consulting services, this service important and stuff like that. It's a straight turn off, essentially. It's just an advertisement. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah. You're selling a product and service. 

Sam (Guest):

Yeah. And it's cold, it doesn't connect people emotionally. Probably the only emotion is frustration, I'm guessing. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah. 

Sam (Guest):

Will I sink too much frustration. But other than that, it doesn't create a positive energy, that positive emotion that you want. Think of it as branding and story telling is just like dating, right? You need to create a positive energy. Somebody needs to like you first, to trust you that you are a decent person before we have a second date, third date, and eventually talk about getting married or whatever it is.

Eric Feng (Host):

Correct.

Sam (Guest):

Likewise on social media as well. What has worked is being myself, that's one. Not selling anything. And also taking the effort to take the relationship online to offline. I think that's something that a lot of people miss, where they focus only on building their brand online, having followers, having all that clicks, all that likes and shares. But they forget about that human connection.

I think one interesting thing about social media, it's supposed to be social. It's not supposed to be one way, it's supposed to be a platform for us to connect, to build relationships, and not just for us to self promote. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yes. 

Sam (Guest):

I think it's become a platform for most people to self promote only, without thinking about how can I connect, how can I use this as an opportunity to know that person better even. It's not all about yourself. A good brand starts from understanding who the audience is, and giving the value to that person instead of just self promoting. I think that's a very common mistake that's a big pain point, actually.

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay. So now you have teased out two very important strategies. Step number one is you said that you use social media to tell the world about what Sam is all about. And then step number two is you must turn an online connection to an offline connection. Okay, so we're going to cover these two things, okay?

Imagine someone listening to us right now wants to build his personal brand or her personal brand on a social media platform. What would be a framework you can give him so that he can introduce himself or herself into the social media world? Because you bring out some key words. Ideologies, thoughts, values. Walk us through the process.

Sam (Guest):

I think it's similar, personal brand, employer brand, it starts from having that clarity. So instead of just going to social media and trying to blast every single thing, or try and copy every single one out there, it's not going to help. It starts from having that personal audit. So employer branding site, you have that employer branding audit. Personal branding-wise, have a personal audit. 

Usually what I do from a coaching perspective, I start from this simple framework called VISAA with a double A. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay, VISAA with a double A. 

Sam (Guest):

Right. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Come, tell us what is it?

Sam (Guest):

V stands for values. What is really important to you? What do you not want to compromise no matter what? That's the first thing you think about. That's V. I is actually interests. What motivates you on a day to day basis, that keeps you going, and something that you're passionate about. S is actually strengths. What comes naturally to you, what are you good at doing. What do people who know me say, "Hey Eric, you're very good at doing this," for example. So that's a strength. How do you play to your strength.

First A is then aspiration. Aspiration is not a typical HR question, where do you see yourself in 10 years, right? But rather, if you just close your eyes and visualize today, what does success look like? What do you see? Do you see you're relaxing on the beach, do you see yourself having a happy family, do you see yourself being financially independent, what is it? So that's what success means, and that's the aspirational aspect of it. 

Finally A is then once you have your aspirations, once you have your VIS, what's the action plan? How do you get there? And the getting there part will then help you decide what are some content you can create, what are some bite sized things you can talk about to slowly build up that journey towards that. 

So I think all these are a starting point to give you clarity. Because typically what people think of is okay, my end goal is to say I want to be a CEO by 40, for example. Within one year, I'm not getting closer to a CEO, I feel like I'm a failure. I did nothing, there's nothing I can talk about. But if you have this VISAA, and you can break it down to smaller, what we call career building blocks. For example, to become a CEO what do I need? I need to be, let's say a good public speaker. I need to have good financial acumen, I need to have good people relationship skills, for example. These are small building blocks, and these are things that help you achieve in a shorter time, and help you see that you're actually progressing closer to your goal, essentially. 

So with that, you actually feel that I'm getting closer and closer to my end goal, the aspiration part. You feel good about yourself, and that's why constantly you have different stories you can tell on your journey itself. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Oh my God. Okay, see my bugging question was wait, you're asking yourself how do we communicate it. Values is easy. 

Sam (Guest):

Yeah. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Once you are very certain on what you stand for, you can communicate it through your day to day experiences. Interests, also very simple. Strengths as well. But I was actually puzzled about the A. Like how do I communicate aspirations? So we don't really communicate aspiration, we communicate the journey towards our aspirations.

Sam (Guest):

I guess, to some extent, you can also communicate your aspiration, in terms of what's my vision. For example, at SoA it's about creating a platform for the Asian community to have a voice, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah. 

Sam (Guest):

To unlock opportunities, for example. That's the vision, for example. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Correct. 

Sam (Guest):

But how do I get there is constantly show things that I do. So like you say, we can document the journey to see how we're getting closer to the aspiration, but we can constantly remind people what our aspiration point is, because when you have that big goal, that big aspiration itself, it actually attracts like-minded people. I think that's the power of brand, right? Where you have something bigger than yourself. Something that's bigger than what you do essentially at this moment, it attracts like-minded people. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay, so I'm again going to put you to a test, okay? And this is really powerful. Because what I've learned from you right now is the self audit. And actually, at the core personal branding is self awareness. 

Sam (Guest):

Yeah. 

Eric Feng (Host):

So now, let's try it, okay. Say, for example, my value is I value growth. 

Sam (Guest):

Okay. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay? Now, how do I communicate it on a social media platform?

Sam (Guest):

So, you can show things through your content, right? You can constantly show things that promotes growth. For example, today I am picking up podcasts. So that is one thing, a new skill I am picking up for this year. That's part of growth. Or within even the podcast space, for example, I've learned something from me new guest today Sam, for example, or someone else that is a new point that adds on to my skill set, my toolkit, essentially. That is growth. 

So essentially you have a core topic of growth, but you can use different walks of life, different inspirations across different touchpoints in your life to bring out that growth element. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Which means that once I get clear of my value, I just need to look for evidence around me to be able to communicate that particular value. 

Sam (Guest):

Yes. 

Eric Feng (Host):

So if it's growth, then I look for evidence, that have I grown? If I've grown, I'll share what is my growth journey. 

Sam (Guest):

Or how did I grow, right? Essentially. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Or how have I grown. Or if I read an article in my process of growing, and I think this is interesting for others, I share that too. And that will bring other growth oriented people to me. 

Sam (Guest):

Yep. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay. What about interests? Let's say my interest is something very random. I'm very interested in hiking, which is not work related. How would you put that on social media?

Sam (Guest):

Typically it goes back to analogy. So let's say hiking. What are some things you can learn from hiking that applies to your personal life? For example, determination. You get tired along the way, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. 

Sam (Guest):

So you need to push through it, and stuff like that. Or as an entrepreneur, sometimes you can't just keep climbing. You need to take breaks as well. Water breaks, pee breaks, whatever break it is. Similar, right? And how do you, along the journey from the base came, for example, all the way to the peak, there is that personal growth, that personal realization. What did I learn about myself? Did I learn that I can actually do more than what I expected? Did I learn more about what friendship is all about? Did I learn about what determination actually means, for example? All this is part of growth, actually.

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay, fantastic. That's the S which is strengths, right?

Sam (Guest):

Yeah. 

Eric Feng (Host):

So let's say one of my strengths is I love connecting with people, I'm good at connecting with people. How do we communicate that strength on social media? 

Sam (Guest):

One very simple way is then through connection with different people, like let's say two of us, right? I've learned something from you, for example. That is one thing that you constantly talk about, because if your strengths are connecting people, your content can constantly talk about how you connect different like-minded people-

Eric Feng (Host):

Oh my God. 

Sam (Guest):

And share their stories even. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah. 

Sam (Guest):

So personal branding, or even branding itself, it's not always about shining a light on yourself. In fact, the powerful part is about how you shine a light on others. That becomes very valuable, actually. 

Eric Feng (Host):

That's beautiful. And then the last one is let's say my aspiration is, I want to be a person of influence. And you said action plan, so part of my action plan to be a person of influence is meeting other people who are already people of influence. So, how do I translate that on social?

Sam (Guest):

Actually, before we go there, I will then ask this person, why do you want to be a person of influence?

Eric Feng (Host):

Ah, which is how you communicate your aspiration, which is the why you want it. Got it. And every step of the way where you are there, I can share it. Or I'm not there, I can share what I've learned. 

Sam (Guest):

Because what we learn right-

Eric Feng (Host):

Yes. 

Sam (Guest):

... along the way when I do all this coaching, consulting, is that a lot of times people tell you they want to be a person of influence, a CEO, for example. 

Eric Feng (Host):

That's right. 

Sam (Guest):

But that's not really the thing that they really want, there's an underlying reason. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah. And that's-

Sam (Guest):

For example, like you said, a CEO could be because you want to be a person of influence. 

Eric Feng (Host):

True. 

Sam (Guest):

Why? Because you want to create bigger impact.

Eric Feng (Host):

Yes. 

Sam (Guest):

Why? Because creating more impact, you feel proud of yourself. Why do you want to feel proud of yourself? Because you want your family to feel proud of itself. So essentially you talk about the five why's, right? After every answer, you ask a why. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah. 

Sam (Guest):

You probably can decipher a little bit, at the core of it, what the true value, what the true aspiration is, as a result of becoming a CEO, of becoming a person of influence. 

Eric Feng (Host):

And through this exercise, I saw the pattern, I saw the main, common theme, which is the minute we identify our VISAA, all we need to do is leverage on stories to communicate every aspect of that. 

Sam (Guest):

Precisely.

Eric Feng (Host):

And that itself is really a content strategy. Whether is it for a company, or whether is it for a individual brand. Okay, so we covered a very big part. Now, let's say I do that on a consistent basis, and constantly adding the people that I want to connect with. My next step now is, you said this, how do we turn that connection, that online connection to an offline connection?

Sam (Guest):

Typically what I do is I always observe people that have been supporting me, people that are engaging me. Whether or not they're potential clients or not, for example. So I'll just drop them a message to thank them, and I always make a conscious effort, as much as possible, to reply every single comment. As much as possible. To then just, at the very least, thank them. And drop private messages to those that have been really following me or supporting me in different ways, to just connect for them. I think these are good ways to actually further the relationship. So that's one thing. 

The other thing is then when you bring it offline, whether it's a Zoom call in today's day and age, or actually a coffee chat. Focus on not selling. I think the tendency is as a sales person typically you want to sell something. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah. Like I have a product to sell, a service to sell. 

Sam (Guest):

Very eager to come from my mouth, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

Exactly. 

Sam (Guest):

It's very difficult. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Exactly. 

Sam (Guest):

I think my advice to even my team is, typically in the first meeting just focus on getting to know the person better, and trying to build a likability. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay. So you mentioned two things, walk us through how. How do you make a person like you? 

Sam (Guest):

I think by showing that you care for that person, by showing that you actually care about what the person stands for, that's very important. So don't go in a meeting trying to tell the person everything about yourself. Go in as an active listener. I think that's very important. You listen more than you speak, that's where people always say, "We had a very good conversation."

Eric Feng (Host):

So be genuinely interested in a person. 

Sam (Guest):

Yes. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Can I add my spin to that?

Sam (Guest):

Sure. 

Eric Feng (Host):

I have three questions that I teach my mentees to ask. 

Sam (Guest):

Okay. 

Eric Feng (Host):

I don't know if it works. I always say, step number one, ask them what is a goal that you set for yourself in 2021. Then number two is, why do you set that goal? Ask a few series of why, like you said, to uncover that person's value. And then ask the person, what's the biggest roadblock you're facing right now that's preventing you from achieving that goal? And then you go do whatever it takes to help them solve their problem. What do you think? Do you think that would be a good way to add value to the person?

Sam (Guest):

I think it depends on how you put it across. I think the questions are great, it's just a matter of how you put it across. Because I think every [inaudible 00:39:01], so it sounds very smooth. But if someone who is Chinese, for the first time perhaps, it may sound a little bit deliberate. And I think when it sounds too deliberate [crosstalk 00:39:09]. Yeah. And especially if you're genuine, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

How do you make it part of the conversation? How do you make it flowy? 

Sam (Guest):

I would say having a structure is great, but you still have to understand what works best for the situation itself. So if the person is very chatty and stuff, just let him talk. If the person is very quiet, maybe start having a bit of a conversation, a bit of stories to connect further. And try to find a common topic, something, a baseline. I think the baseline is very important. Common interests, right? So when you talk about mirroring techniques, one of the key things is then how do you mirror common experience and interests.

Eric Feng (Host):

Common experience, common interests. 

Sam (Guest):

Yes. 

Eric Feng (Host):

And it's easy to find that through LinkedIn these days. Or even Instagram, because if I follow you enough, I roughly know what you care about. 

Sam (Guest):

Yeah. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay, let's assume that I'm trying to connect with Sam for the first time. Number one, Sam posts a lot of Instagram stories about his son. So therefore, if I am a father, then we would definitely talk about fatherhood. How do we balance between that. Number two, I know you are a huge fan of story telling, which is also a reason why I brought you to this studio. So therefore, a second piece of topic we can talk about is story telling. And then what you're saying is that in the process of creating common ground, I then figure out what you're working on, and how I can be of value to you.

Sam (Guest):

Yeah. Don't jump straight, in my opinion. Because if you jump straight, it comes across as too deliberate. It comes across as too orchestrated in some sense. Just a word of caution as well, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

Yes. 

Sam (Guest):

Let's say you know that, for example, I'm a father. I care a lot about my son and stuff. You jump in and talk about fatherhood topic.

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah. 

Sam (Guest):

I think that's fine. That is a common topic, for example, assuming you have a son. But there was one incident that was a bit more creepy. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay, come on. 

Sam (Guest):

There was a guy, he claims to be a debtpreneur as well, people like this debtpreneur term, which I put on LinkedIn. He just asked me a few questions, like how are you doing, how many kids do you have? So I just answered one kid and stuff. Do you plan to have the next kid soon? And stuff like that, so it started becoming a bit creepy. It's like I don't know you well enough, why are you digging in my personal life so much. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah.

Sam (Guest):

So I think when you connect with an individual, you also have to sense a little bit about their comfort level, and move slowly, not too aggressively. Even if you want to talk about, let's say fatherhood, don't move into something too private unless the person starts talking about certain things that are very private. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it. 

Sam (Guest):

Because everyone has different comfort levels. The last thing you want is to intrude in the privacy level that is uncomfortable, after spending so much time building that trust. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah. 

Sam (Guest):

The trust can be broken quite immediately, actually as well. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Wow. So how do we make sure that we don't end up asking questions that we're not supposed to ask?

Sam (Guest):

I think play safe. I always say play safe in the first meeting. Just focus on understanding the person better, try to create a bit of likability in terms of the common topics. 

Eric Feng (Host):

So just be genuinely interested. 

Sam (Guest):

Yeah. And try to add value, share a bit of your experience that you have that you've gone through. Just to build that initial connection. And then once you have that sense, how deep can you go, and then second meeting will be a better time to go a little bit deeper, and to push a little bit further in terms of the boundaries itself. First meeting, typically I would say keep it a bit safer, a bit cordial. But be sincere, definitely. I think that's important. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it. Oh my God, I love this. This is powerful. We will do a summary later on, it's our tradition to-

Sam (Guest):

Okay. 

Eric Feng (Host):

... do a podcast summary. But I just want to say I learned two very big things from you. Number one is I've learned how to tell my brand stories using VISAA. That's one. Number two, I also know how to tell a success story. Now, you might frame it as employer branding, but I see it as a success story, which actually we can use as a sales person. We can tell client success stories. Or if I'm a company, I can tell my employee success story. 

Sam (Guest):

Yeah. 

Eric Feng (Host):

So wait for the summary at the end, okay? Final question for you. Actually, two more questions, okay?

Sam (Guest):

Okay. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Could you tell me what is one thing that you did right, that led you to be highly sought after in your field of corporate branding? Because it's very clear, I read your LinkedIn recommendations, the big brands do go out for you, and they like you. And you're not a big consultancy firm, you're local and we support local, yes. But I'm just wondering, what's your secret sauce? What do you think is one thing that you did that make you highly sought after in the corporate branding field?

Sam (Guest):

To me it's consistency, actually. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Tell me more about that.

Sam (Guest):

Building a brand is not overnight. I think a lot of people try to just have the overnight fireworks, just hoping that certain videos and content goes viral, and that's about it. Or I just hope that someone sees this, I get engaged for a project and that's overnight success. Social media typically tells such stories, or the impression is such, right? Behind the scenes there's a lot of consistency, a lot of hard work. I post pretty much every single day, I try to engage people on a daily basis, and that's hard work over the past four plus years. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah, and how do you create love for that? Because not all of us probably love creating content, not all of us love connecting with people. Yet we know these are two very essential, core skills if you want to be successful in the long run. How can we nurture the love for these two things?

Sam (Guest):

It really comes back, at least for me, it ties back to why am I doing this?

Eric Feng (Host):

Oh, the mission.

Sam (Guest):

Yeah. So I don't constantly remind myself, but when I get tired I think about why did I even start doing this in the first place.

Eric Feng (Host):

Why? Why do you want to do all these things?

Sam (Guest):

For me, I believe a lot in creating the Asian voice, a lot in the people enablement space. That there's a little bit more potential that people can do, whether it's the HR space or non-HR space. And I really see that things that I'm doing constantly has impact on people's life. Developing people in different ways, whether it's through mentorship, through programs that we run, through the coaching, consulting. Seeing that gives me a lot of energy, and I constantly remind myself, no matter how tired or how frustrated I may be at certain clients even at times, these are the things that keep me going. And constantly, by sharing all these messages, there are people out there looking forward to this content, this inspiration even, on a day to day basis. So that's what keeps me going to some extent. 

Eric Feng (Host):

I love that. So knowing your why. Another follow up question. Today we talked about communicating our individual brand, but don't forget, a lot of entrepreneurs, we also have companies. 

Sam (Guest):

Yeah. 

Eric Feng (Host):

And we need to communicate our company brand. So wouldn't that be double work? Because I need to communicate my brand on LinkedIn, with my face, and my name. And then I am also the CEO of a company, which means I need to communicate my company brand. How do we balance these two?

Sam (Guest):

Like I said at the beginning, your personal brand, company brand is actually closely knitted, closely tied together. Think about this, right? Think about companies like Virgin, you think about Richard Branson. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yes. 

Sam (Guest):

You think about Amazon, you think about Jeff Bezos. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah. 

Sam (Guest):

You think about let's say Alibaba, I think about Jack Ma, for example. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Jack Ma, yeah. 

Sam (Guest):

And all these are big companies. There are many individuals, there are many executives. But you think about this, so call it talent magnets, essentially, that attracts talent, that attracts all the attention. Essentially, as the CEO of a company, your brand becomes a lot more important because you're like the face of the company, to some extent. If you're able to build a strong brand, where people believe in you, people get inspired, it helps to build the company brand because there's association there. 

Eric Feng (Host):

But does the company brand need to create its own set of content as well?

Sam (Guest):

I would say yes. Okay, so how I see this is this. When I first started out, I was thinking which route should I go? Company brand, personal brand?

Eric Feng (Host):

Exactly. Yeah. 

Sam (Guest):

That is a typical dilemma, of course. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Typical question, yeah. 

Sam (Guest):

So I started building both first. But then I realized the personal brand was going up a lot faster. So that's why I started taking a back seat for the company brand, and used my personal brand to promote my company brand.

Eric Feng (Host):

And it's okay for a person to promote different companies? I represent different companies.

Sam (Guest):

Yep. 

Eric Feng (Host):

So how do I be able to sell different companies?

Sam (Guest):

In different contexts. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it. So different stories that I share, I would drive attention to the different projects I'm working on, the different companies I'm working on. 

Sam (Guest):

But then I think one important thing is then think of what ties all these brands together. For example, at People Mentality we do consulting. Stories of Asia, which is a story telling incubator, like a media company, Story Buddy is a tech company. But essentially all things that add up it's about story telling, it's about enabling people. So that's the common topic that I always talk about in different shapes and forms, different contexts, essentially. 

Eric Feng (Host):

I love that. Oh, thank you so much. This is really powerful stuff. And I know that you are launching a new tech company, you alluded to that just now, Story Buddy. Could you please tell everyone listening what this whole Story Buddy is?

Sam (Guest):

Essentially this arrived from a pain point where I felt that SoA, we wanted to help more people tell their stories, but there's only a limit how much we can do it. I can't go to every corner of the world to interview every single one and things like that. But what if we have a tool that can enable people to tell their stories more effectively? Because typically we realize in the market that people don't tell stories because of three reasons. One is because they don't have time. One is because they don't have inspiration, they don't know where to start. The other is that I have all the eyes in the world, but I don't know how to put in proper structure. 

So we created Story Buddy, and AI powered friend, essentially, to help you tell your stories more effectively through different modes itself. So that different walks of life, different people, even non-native English speakers can start telling stories in different shapes and forms. 

Eric Feng (Host):

How does it work? Let's say I want to tell a story about myself and my Story Buddy.

Sam (Guest):

There are different modes within the platform itself. One is then you can just have one key word. Let's say I talk about sales, I want an inspirational quote. I just click the button, there'll be inspirational quotes coming out from there. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Gosh. 

Sam (Guest):

You can use it to start a content or story already. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yes. 

Sam (Guest):

That's one way. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay, that's one. 

Sam (Guest):

The other way is then inspiration, right? We have a persona mode, where basically you shape your own persona. For example, a sales person. I'm highly passionate, I want to talk about let's say promoting the importance of work/life balance, with let's say family, for example. So I generate that as an objective, and then paragraph will come out. And they can use that as a way to continue creating a piece of content from there. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Fantastic. 

Sam (Guest):

So that's another one. Yeah. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay, well I sense that there are probably a lot of different other features. 

Sam (Guest):

Yeah. 

Eric Feng (Host):

But the whole ideas is to help us tell good stories?

Sam (Guest):

And make it very easy for you, essentially.

Eric Feng (Host):

Consistently, right?

Sam (Guest):

Yes, yes. 

Eric Feng (Host):

And effectively. When is it going to be out?

Sam (Guest):

It will be out in August, so by the time you listen to this it's probably out already. 

Eric Feng (Host):

All right. 

Sam (Guest):

So you can check it out, yeah. 

Eric Feng (Host):

And I will definitely put the link in the show notes, and we'll definitely go check it out. I just want to say thank you so much. 

Sam (Guest):

Thank you. 

Eric Feng (Host):

For not just giving us the big idea, because we all know stories are powerful. But for really actually giving us the flesh, the meat of how to tell a good story as a company, how to tell a good story as an individual. I really appreciate it. 

Sam (Guest):

Thank you. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Thank you so much. 

Sam (Guest):

Thank you Eric. 

Eric Feng (Host):

I hope to see you again. S-A-M.

Sam (Guest):

Yeah. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Slim Asian man. 

Sam (Guest):

Yeah. Going a bit not so slim, but let's keep it up. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Let's keep it up. High five man, thank you so much. 

Sam (Guest):

Yeah, thank you.

Eric Feng (Host):

My biggest takeaway from SAM is that facts tell story sells. And I really love how Sam explained the distinction between corporate story telling and individual story telling. Specifically, if you're going to be telling a story about your company, or your products, then try to approach it through a success story. So he mentioned about this thing called a story gap, where you need to first introduce a problem that your company can solve or your product can solve. And also share the positive outcome of what the product can do. And then share with us the entire journey of how that product can solve this problem. 

So I thought that would be really powerful if you were a sales person. Instead of trying to sell your product features and benefits, why show us how your product or service has helped someone achieve a certain positive outcome, and solve a certain problem? And when you do that, you don't sound salesy, and yet you sound extremely engaging, and you evoke the emotions you need to drive a sale. 

If you are an individual building a personal brand, he talks a lot about trust. That if people don't trust you, they will never want to meet you. And if they don't meet you, you will never have a chance to get a business opportunity. And the way to do that is to start consistently communicating who you are and what you stand for. 

And he used a very powerful framework called VISAA as a way to introduce yourself. So V stands for values, I stands for interests, S stands for strengths, A stands for aspiration, and then also A again stands for action plan. So you could use stories and everyday examples and experiences and analogies to be able to communicate those aspects of yourself. And when you do that, you will attract your tribe who connect with you, and that's how you build trust and business opportunity. 

So I recommend you to re-watch this video, because there's going to be so much that you will learn when you listen to it the second and third time. My name is Eric, we produce interviews like this every week on YouTube. If you like content like this, I will highly recommend you to hit the Subscribe button, hit the like button, and I'll see you at our next video.