20. The dark side of social media: inadequacy, cyberbullying, addiction – Erin Lee

Does social media make you feel you’re not as good as you peers or you competition? Do you worry about getting bullied by trolls and haters? Or perhaps you find yourself getting hopelessly addicted to social media that you can’t stop checking your social media accounts. If that’s you, take a deep breath. Relax. We’ve got you covered.

My guest today is highly qualified to help you manage and even reduce the stresses that come with social media. She is a Certified Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction teacher who has helped thousands of highly stressed professionals be able to reduce stress and become more mentally resilient. She is also a professional stress management consultant recognised by the Institute of Motivational Living. She also hosts regular mindfulness practice for communities like The Big Sit and Take A Pause.

In today’s interview, Erin is going to help us overcome the dark side of social media: inadequacies, cyberbullying, addiction. So, if you want to enjoy the benefits of social media without the harmful effects of it, this is in the interview to listen to!

If you are are an entrepreneur or content creator on social media, listen in at 30:45 as you will love Erin's tip on how to deal with inadequacies at so that you can neutralise negative emotions on social media.

And listen in to Erin's answers to the following questions:

• I feel like there is a backstory to yours. I know you were in corporate, then you when into mindfulness full time. How did you become a mindfulness coach? - 1:06
• How did you know you were burnt out? What were the signs? - 1:56
• Tell us a bit about your 10-day meditation retreat - 5:59
• What do you mean when you say work with your pain? - 11:43
• How did mindfulness help you so much that you were willing to get certified to help other people? - 14:37
• At the last day of the retreat, how were you changed as a person? - 18:05
• The Erin that we know today and the Erin that we know in 2014, what are some of the key differences? - 19:56
• There is the good side of social media, but it comes with stresses. Let’s tackle the stresses. Let’s focus on the first one. Why do we feel inadequate on social media? - 26:10
• How can we deal with inadequacies on social media? - 30:45
• Now the second baddie of social media, trolls and haters. Why are we wired to focus on the bad? - 34:26
• Is there something we can start trying to be more mindful? - 46:55
• How can we reduce our addictions to social media and get back in control of our behaviour? - 51:42
• Is there books we can read to become more mindful? - 57:50

If you want to keep in touch with Erin, you can reach her on Instagram @erinmindfulmoments, on Facebook @erinmindfulmoments and on LinkedIn (Erin Lee).

You can also join Erin's mindfulness practice communities The Big Sit at www.thebigsit.co & Take A Pause at http://www.mindfulmoments.sg/take-a-pause.html.

If you want to work with Erin, check out her company Mindful Moments at: www.MindfulMoments.sg.

Read these books to become highly sought after in your own industry -> www.pickericsbrain.com

Thank you for listening to this episode of #HighlySoughtAfter!

If you enjoyed this episode, please help me hit the ‘subscribe’ button if you’re listening on Apple Podcasts or hit the ‘follow’ button if you are listening on Spotify.

I would also love to hear your biggest takeaway from this episode! Here’s how: take a screenshot of you listening to #HighlySoughtAfter and tag me on Instagram. My handle is @ericgoesglobal. This way, I can personally thank you!

Transcript

Eric Feng (Host):

Does social media make you feel like you're not good enough? Do you worry about getting bullied by trolls and haters, or perhaps you find yourself getting hopelessly addicted to social media that you can't stop checking your social media accounts. If that's you, take a deep breath, relax because we got you covered.

My guest today is highly qualified to help you manage and even reduce the stresses that comes with social media. She's a certified mindfulness-based stress reduction teacher who has helped many stressed-out professionals reduce stress, and become more mentally resilient.

Eric Feng (Host):

She's also a professional stress management consultant recognized by the Institute of Motivational Living. She holds regular mindfulness practice sessions for communities like the Big Sit and Take A Pause, what a meaningful name. In today's interview, Erin is going to be helping us overcome the dark side of social media through the lenses of mindfulness. If you want to enjoy the benefits of social media without the harmful effects of it, this is the interview to listen to.

Eric Feng (Host):

Hi, Erin. Nice to meet you.

Erin (Guest):

Hi. Thanks for having me here.

Eric Feng (Host):

Now, I'm curious. I feel like there's a backstory behind yours, because I know you are in corporate, and then you went into mindfulness full time.

Erin (Guest):

Yes. I did.

Eric Feng (Host):

What's your backstory? How do you end up becoming a mindfulness coach?

Erin (Guest):

Oh wow, how do I tell this in a very succinct way?

Eric Feng (Host):

Take all the time here.

Erin (Guest):

Take all the time.

Eric Feng (Host):

It's a podcast. Take all the time you want.

Erin (Guest):

Well, I worked in corporate communications for about 10 years. Through that 10 years, I was just going into cycles and cycles of burnout. I called myself the burnout queen, because with every job that I went into, I just put a 200% in it. I would exhaust myself, and then I would have a total breakdown. I would quit my job. Then I would find a new job desperately, and then just begin the cycle again.

Eric Feng (Host):

The cycle begins. How do you know you were burnt out?

Erin (Guest):

That's a very good question.

Eric Feng (Host):

We use that a lot, right? I'm feeling burnt out. I'm feeling burnt out. How do you know you're supposed [inaudible 00:02:05]?

Erin (Guest):

I think for burnout, usually, people see it as when you allow your stress to just roll and accumulate to a certain point, and then you suddenly lose all interest in everything that you do, particularly with work. While stress is something that takes a physical toll on you, you feel physically tired. With stress, there is always this sense of urgency, right? I have to complete this deadline, that deadline. I have to do this, do that. But when you reach a state of burnout, it often feels like nothing matters anymore.

Eric Feng (Host):

I'm laughing because I'm believing a lot of listeners listening to you are like, "That's me."

Erin (Guest):

Being able to relate, right? It's very emotionally draining as well. You just feel like you've lost all motivation and all interest, and you feel there's a sense of helplessness. You feel you want to give up, and you're just in this perpetual downward spiral that you never know is going to end, and you just... That's...

Eric Feng (Host):

Wow.

Erin (Guest):

You just go into this overall breakdown, and you just want to call it quits to everything.

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it. You had a series of those burnouts.

Erin (Guest):

I had a series of them, and each worsening over time until my last job as a PR consultant with an agency, and that was the last straw on the camel's back. I still remember I was in the middle of a PR event, public relations event. It was all glitzy and glamorous and everything. That was the life that I lived professionally, until I was... During that event, I was made to carry a really expensive luxury handbag, because I was helping my client and everything. She was going up on stage and receiving some award or something. I cannot remember. I just remember in that moment, that bag actually helped me. It was quite amazing.

Erin (Guest):

For the first time, I noticed myself. The weight of the bag just reminded me that my body is here, and suddenly, everything just faded away. I was very, very aware, very conscious that it's like every cell in my body was crying for help. I recognized, "Oh, this is what I've been feeling all along. This is how tired I've been." It's like every cell of me is drenched in exhaustion. It's not just physical exhaustion. It's also an emotional exhaustion and mental exhaustion. That was the very first time that I felt I ever truly paid attention to myself over the years of working.

Eric Feng (Host):

Would you say that that was that moment of mindfulness?

Erin (Guest):

Definitely. It was a moment of mindfulness because mindfulness is really about being aware and paying attention. That was the first time. Of course, I wasn't skilled at it. I think that moment meant to come. I was very fortunate to have that moment arrived for me in time before a total breakdown.

Eric Feng (Host):

Knockout. What happened after that?

Erin (Guest):

What happened after? I was also quite... I'm quite a pragmatic person as well, although I do like to dream, but I wanted to... I recognized that I needed to help myself. I put on a very resourceful front. I basically searched for different ways of helping myself. I took a step back from my work. I converted to a part-time position in the company, and that allowed me some time and some space to explore. That's where I went to... I became a hypnotherapist, actually, during that time. I went for meditation, my first silent 10-day meditation retreat. That was absolutely life changing for me.

Erin (Guest):

Everything just started rolling from there. I made the transition from there.

Eric Feng (Host):

Tell us a little bit about that meditation retreat. I sense a story there, because you have to face it, that was your first meditation retreat, right?

Erin (Guest):

That was my very first, and I did not know what I was going into.

Eric Feng (Host):

Exactly.

Erin (Guest):

I had absolutely no idea what that retreat was about. I just had a really close friend tell me, "Hey, you've been thinking about what you want to do, and I've always sensed that you're very Zen-like person, so why don't you go for meditation?" I just basically searched meditation retreat. I was in China then. I was working in China. I was just searching for one around the area. That's when I found one, and I just enrolled. I just went-

Eric Feng (Host):

Tell us all of it. What was it like?

Erin (Guest):

10 days doing nothing but sit and meditate and sleep and eat and sleep. That's it, rinse and repeat.

Eric Feng (Host):

Are you able to make friends?

Erin (Guest):

We're not supposed to talk.

Eric Feng (Host):

Oh my God. This is like hell for me.

Erin (Guest):

There were 100 people in the retreat center. We were all together, but we were not allowed to even make eye contact or whisper or make physical contact throughout the 10 days. It was like you're basically by yourself. It was quite an intensive experience, not just the silence itself, but also the practice of it.

Eric Feng (Host):

Exactly. I can imagine that you have no Netflix, no distraction. Essentially, you're with yourself, which means you're listening to your thoughts, right?

Erin (Guest):

Yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

What was the experience like?

Erin (Guest):

It was bizarre at first, very bizarre.

Eric Feng (Host):

What do you mean?

Erin (Guest):

The moment I had to turn in my phone, they kept our phones in a locker, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

Yes.

Erin (Guest):

It sounds like it's very boot camping in a way. It really was.

Eric Feng (Host):

It is.

Erin (Guest):

But I was thankful because without all these distractions, I got to really, really pay attention to myself. I got a taster of paying attention to myself during the PR event, but this was 10 days, consecutive days of just being by myself. Besides being privy to my thoughts, I think what was most life changing was I was also privy to my body, which is very rare nowadays, because we're just so in the head space all the time that we're just basically very cut off from the body, but the body has so much to tell us about ourselves, about the anxiety that we experience every day, about the stresses, about our state of mind. The body can tell us a lot.

Erin (Guest):

One of the most memorable experiences that I went through during the first retreat was that we were encouraged to sit for one hour without moving. We were not supposed to open our eyes. We're not supposed to change our posture. Basically, you're just cross legged on the floor, and you sit like a statue. You try to sit like a statue for one minute... sorry, one hour.

Eric Feng (Host):

One hour.

Erin (Guest):

Being the perfectionist that I was and a high achiever, I really just dived into it. I was really strict and disciplined with myself, and I refused to move an inch.

Eric Feng (Host):

Wouldn't you have cramps [crosstalk 00:09:06]?

Erin (Guest):

That was the most excruciating pain that I've been through in my life.

Eric Feng (Host):

Yes.

Erin (Guest):

It was also life changing because the pain also taught me so much about myself. We can tell a lot about ourselves from observing how we respond to certain struggles that we face in life. That was the moment when I realized that the physical pain was unlike the mental and emotional pain that I was facing in life in general. By learning to work with the physical pain, it's akin to developing the skills that are needed to work with the mental, the emotional pain in our life. That was the magical moment. I mean, it's not magic. It's really not magic.

Erin (Guest):

It's a life skill, but it felt like a very magical moment to me to realize that, "Oh, I can learn to work with my pain, not exacerbate my pain, but just learn to work with it." We started that one hour sitting from, I think, day five onwards, and it took me two days of constantly sitting for one hour, one hour for me to get used to that pain. I think about the seventh or eighth day, during one of the sets, the pain completely disappeared-

Eric Feng (Host):

Oh my.

Erin (Guest):

... in a sense that I could still feel the pain, but very strangely, it did not bother me at all. That was the life-changing moment. That's when I realized no matter how much pain life throws me, I know that I can work with it.

Eric Feng (Host):

Oh my god, it's so powerful. This is something that money can't buy. I mean, we all know this, right? There's a saying they say that pain is weakness leaving our body. Pressure produces power. We all know this, right? It all sounds good on paper, but when push comes to shove, we have to deal with pain. A lot of us can't take it.

Erin (Guest):

Yes. Actually, the normal response to pain is a turning away, right? You distract yourself.

Eric Feng (Host):

100%. You're saying that we need to actually learn to get used to the pain to be uncomfortable with the pain, to sit with the pain.

Erin (Guest):

To rest with the pain, to observe the pain.

Eric Feng (Host):

Do we need to remove the pain?

Erin (Guest):

Well, sometimes we can't control it. We can't control what kind of pain life throws us, so we learn to work with it instead of trying to wish it to go away.

Eric Feng (Host):

When you say work with it, you use it many times. I mean, guys, we're going to talk about the dark side of social media in a short while. I mean, Erin, you just opened a Pandora's box, and it's a very interesting one. What do you mean when you say work with your pain?

Erin (Guest):

When I work with my pain, it's not that I am free from pain now. I still experience a lot of pain physically, mentally-

Eric Feng (Host):

Physical, mental.

Erin (Guest):

... but working with pain to me means being able to just be with it without trying to push it away, because there's a lot of pain that we can't push away, so when we learn to just rest with it... In mindfulness, we call this a non-judgmental awareness. Non-judgmental means that it's really having a balanced state of mind. When life throws us any highs and lows, we're not wishing for the highs. We're not wishing for the lows to go away. We just maintain a very balanced state of mind, which is a very zen state of mind that that people call. It's what we call equanimity as well, feeling equal.

Eric Feng (Host):

Maybe acceptance. Would acceptance be an accurate word/

Erin (Guest):

Yes, definitely. Definitely. We learn to accept it, but acceptance, people tend to also misunderstand it as you are... How do I explain this? When-

Eric Feng (Host):

There's a resignation maybe like, "Oh, I accept it. Too bad."

Erin (Guest):

Yes. Yes, or come hurt me. It doesn't matter to me anymore.

Eric Feng (Host):

That's not what you mean, right?

Erin (Guest):

That's not what we mean.

Eric Feng (Host):

It's basically non-judgmental, because we tend to put a certain value or judgment value to it, "Oh, this is good. This is bad."

Erin (Guest):

Yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

But what you're saying is that when the pain comes, we may feel it, but we don't have to judge that pain to be good or bad.

Erin (Guest):

Yes, absolutely.

Eric Feng (Host):

That's part of working with it.

Erin (Guest):

Yes, and it's really difficult, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

I think so. Let's say I get through that part, where I could accept the pain. Then what's the next step? Is there something I need to do, or that's the whole answer? By the way, if you guys don't watch the podcast, she's laughing because, I guess, a lot of us ask those noob questions.

Erin (Guest):

It's not noob at all. Well, I would say that usually... That's a very common question that people ask, right? For example, if I were to teach an eight-week MBSR program, mindfulness-based stress reduction program, so people complete the eight weeks with me, and then at the end of the eight weeks, they'll tell me, "So what's next? Is there a level two program for me as an advanced mindfulness practitioner?"

Eric Feng (Host):

Can I move things in my mind?

Erin (Guest):

Exactly. There really is no need to do anything. With the practice of mindfulness, with the practice of acceptance and non-judgmental awareness, we're not trying to do something about it, but this is something that we're so accustomed to.

Eric Feng (Host):

So cool.

Erin (Guest):

Yeah, because we always want to problem solve and try to find a solution to it, which is fine. Problem solving is a good skill to have. But with mindfulness, sometimes the solution comes with acceptance. Maybe when we work with having acceptance and having awareness, and learning to work with the pain without trying too hard, the solution comes to us.

Eric Feng (Host):

Wow. Very nice. Instead of us looking for the solution, like when the water steals itself, and-

Erin (Guest):

You can see things clearly.

Eric Feng (Host):

... and [crosstalk 00:14:44] see things clearly, and then the solution, which is the face.

Erin (Guest):

Yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

Gosh, guys, I felt like I'm going through a very nice therapy lesson, and I love it. Now, so we get it. You had a profound experience, a series of burnout, and then you went for your retreat. You started seeking about meditation and mindfulness. How did that... How long was that journey, by the way?

Erin (Guest):

It was really progressive, I would say. It took me... For example, to be certified to teach the program, which is the gold standard in the secular mindfulness industry, it took me probably three years to get fully certified, three years.

Eric Feng (Host):

Wow.

Erin (Guest):

Then I also took a master program on the side, so it-

Eric Feng (Host):

It took a long time.

Erin (Guest):

It took a long time.

Eric Feng (Host):

How had mindfulness helped you so much that you were willing to even get yourself certified to help other people? I would have assumed that you had a problem, so you've got burned out. You want to seek a solution, and you went from mindfulness. You love it. Life's changed. Done, but something must have been so impactful to you that you decide that you want to pay it forward. What was it?

Erin (Guest):

During my first meditation retreat, the 10-day one, every night, we have discourse by the teacher, so during one of the evenings, he gave a discourse that left a deep impression in me, and it was quite life changing. He actually told the teachings of the Buddha, so this is the teachings of the Buddha who said that there are four kinds of people in this world. The first kind are people running from brightness to brightness. The second kind are people running from darkness to brightness. The third kind, people running from brightness to darkness, and the fourth kind, people running from darkness to further darkness.

Erin (Guest):

What kind of person do you want to be?

Eric Feng (Host):

I definitely want to be brightness to even brighter.

Erin (Guest):

You recognize that you are in a place of brightness right now.

Eric Feng (Host):

That was so unconscious. I even think of me in the dark space.

Erin (Guest):

That's quite interesting, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

But if I am in the light, I might think, "Maybe I'm in the dark place," but it was very natural, so okay.

Erin (Guest):

Right, so but a lot of people, also, when they're in a place of brightness, they may not realize it, and they may out of habit or just out of past habits or the larger environment, they may go back to a place of darkness. It was so powerful to me, and I've always held this as my value in life, that no matter what I do, no matter what decisions that I make, no matter what behaviors I engage in, I always want to make sure that I am running towards brightness. Whether I'm in a place of darkness or already in a place of brightness, I want to make sure that I continue moving towards brightness.

Erin (Guest):

I really wanted to help people see the same and to experience the same and to recognize that no matter what kinds of place of darkness that we come from, we have the capacity to move towards a place of brightness.

Eric Feng (Host):

At the last day of that retreat, how were you changed as a person?

Erin (Guest):

Oh my, not much. Not much, really, and it may come as a surprise, because we've built it up such that it's such a powerful experience-

Eric Feng (Host):

Exactly.

Erin (Guest):

... but we are creatures of habit, right? Before I went for the meditation retreat, I really had a problem with binge drinking. As a way to get out of my stress, I distracted myself from the pain by drinking excessively.

Eric Feng (Host):

Absolutely.

Erin (Guest):

Really, I recognized that I had a problem with that. I went to the retreat with the intention of trying to kick the habit. In that retreat, of course, you don't get to drink, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah, so you kick the habit.

Erin (Guest):

Yes for that 10 days, but I recall I was actually in Taiwan. I did the retreat in Taiwan. The very day that I got out of the retreat, that very evening, I went drinking.

Eric Feng (Host):

To celebrate.

Erin (Guest):

Well, to celebrate getting out of prison, that kind of thing. Well, I didn't want it to happen, but we have to recognize that we have spent so many years building up certain habits or certain patterns in us. We can't expect a quick fix or quick solution. It's not a pill, and a pill can solve all these things. It's a skill that you build over time, so it actually took me... After the retreat, it took me quite a few years to completely stop drinking even and to completely do an overhaul of my way of life. That's how long it takes, but it is powerful because we know that change is possible.

Eric Feng (Host):

It takes time, little by little, right?

Erin (Guest):

It takes time. Yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

How long was that journey from the day the handbag incident happened to today? What was the time spent already?

Erin (Guest):

I started in about 2014.

Eric Feng (Host):

So what? Seven years.

Erin (Guest):

Yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

Now, the Erin that we know today and the Erin that we know in 2014, what are some of the key differences?

Erin (Guest):

Definitely more aware, definitely more comfortable with discomfort. Also, one of the most important realizations is that I've discovered that I don't function on my own. I don't function independently, which is what a lot of us, conscious or unconsciously, live by. We think when we are suffering, when we are going through stresses, we feel we're alone. We feel isolated, and nobody understands me.

Eric Feng (Host):

So true. Yes.

Erin (Guest):

Sometimes, we also engage in behaviors that we think only we ourselves are responsible for. When we go into stress, we also engage in self-destructive behaviors maybe like stress eating or getting addicted to social media, and maybe even posting things on social media without understanding that we are all interconnected. Just like social media, just like the internet, we're all interconnected. Whatever that I put out there has an impact on other people. I have come to realize that the way that I manage my own suffering does have an impact on the people closest to me and also farthest away from me.

Erin (Guest):

The closest would be my family. When they see me suffer, they suffer. When they see me well, they also benefit from it. People who are far away, so whatever that I post on Facebook, for example, we don't know who is going to see it, so how do we make the decision? Do we want to post something that's positive, that's helpful, that's wise, or do we want to post something that's the complete opposite? How would this impact other people?

Eric Feng (Host):

That's beautiful. Not only that the practical side is there's no more need for the drinking, and you're comfortable with this comfort, but you start to gain awareness of interconnectedness-

Erin (Guest):

Yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

... the things that we read a lot about being one. I mean, we hear that a lot. I don't claim I know it's experiential, but I sense that what you see is you're not alone. You're not an individual, but you're one, and that gives you the bigness of how you want to live your life, right?

Erin (Guest):

It sounds very... How do I say it? It sounds really big, really huge.

Eric Feng (Host):

A grandeur.

Erin (Guest):

But it really goes down to how we live our day to day lives, so something as simple as since COVID period, a lot of people are working from home, and they're starting to feel the stresses, "Oh, I'm stuck at home with my family. I can't concentrate on work." It takes a lot of adjustments of the dynamics in the family, and it takes mindfulness of our behaviors and knowing that, "Hey, I'm not here alone." Let's say when I'm on a video call, and I need silence around me. My family members, they understand, and they give me that silence for that period of time. That is a recognition of interconnectedness.

Erin (Guest):

You don't own that space alone. You share it with someone. It's the same thing when we're managing our struggles, our stresses. We understand that we impact one another, and we're not alone in our sufferings, and everyone suffers just the same. Understanding this common humanity, it's very important for our practice.

Eric Feng (Host):

Wow. At the very least, if I'm going through a struggle, which is very interesting, every time a person... At least me, every time I go through a struggle, I tend to retreat rather than advance. Isn't that cool sometimes when you retreat?

Erin (Guest):

How do you retreat?

Eric Feng (Host):

I will basically just start indulging in self-destructive behaviors, binge eating, watch lots of Netflix, and wish my problems away. Sometimes not being able to cause [inaudible 00:23:55], which is to say that I really do have that problem, but I realized that... I remember there was a period in my life where I was going through a lot of anxiety. It's very ironic, Erin, because people come to me and you for hope, for brightness, and so it suck when you're in a dark world, because you attach your identity to your brightness.

Erin (Guest):

Right.

Eric Feng (Host):

I was embarrassed by it. I was embarrassed by that. Why am I feeling this dark thoughts? Didn't I tell people that you should always think positive? Why am I feeling all these things? Why am I getting anxiety? Why am I getting panic? I felt embarrassed. When I felt embarrassed, I [inaudible 00:24:33], because I have no idea how to deal with it. Yet, at the same time, I had no one to reach out to because I don't want to look weak, vulnerable. I guess, as you said, human beings after a while, when you cannot take it anymore, you reach out, and I did.

Erin (Guest):

Right. It is important to reach out. It is.

Eric Feng (Host):

I reached out to one person who I felt had been through what I've been through before, because I thought I was going through depression, and I thought... She had clearly told me before that she has been through depression, so I sat down with her. I remember meeting her at Dempsey or P.S. Café, very nice cafe, eating truffle fries, drinking tea. I was sitting there by myself, and she came and we spoke for about four hours.

Erin (Guest):

Wow.

Eric Feng (Host):

Just by me reaching out, my biggest realization was it was exactly what you just said, which is I'm not alone. What I'm going through, it's not unique. It's what people have gone through. You don't have to be shy about it. It's part of a process. I realized that. It took a while, but me admitting that I had a problem, and me reaching out to people who could solve that problem gave me strength. Then that strength allowed me to help someone later on. From then on, I had a new narrative about my pain that, you know what, pain... Me going through all the messes, it's going to help strengthen me, because one day, I will then be able to go to someone who's going through that same problem and tell them that I have been through that, and I want to help you.

Eric Feng (Host):

I have a new narrative about pain.

Erin (Guest):

That's wonderful.

Eric Feng (Host):

I'm sorry that it becomes about me. It was supposed to be about you.

Erin (Guest):

No. No. Absolutely. That's wonderful. Thank you for sharing that.

Eric Feng (Host):

See, I'm such a good coach. It feels like a coaching session. Erin, we get you totally, at least your back story, your journey. Thank you so much for calling a spade. Sometimes, people wish for the sizzle and the grandeur, but maybe that's not the way it is, right? Going back to today's topic, there are the good side of social media.

Erin (Guest):

Absolutely.

Eric Feng (Host):

I preach that all the time. I mean, I tell people, "You need to be on social media. You need to be consistent. You need to put yourself out there." My people do that, but it comes with the stresses. Today, we're going to tackle three. Number one, inadequacy, people tend to put a lot of their highlights of their life out there. You know how we know ourselves very well, so we tend to compare the behind the scenes with people's highlight [inaudible 00:26:57], and that makes us extremely depressed.

Erin (Guest):

Yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

That's one, right? Feeling inadequate, feeling that you're not good enough. The second one is you get a lot of negativity on social media.

Erin (Guest):

Yes, we do.

Eric Feng (Host):

A lot. There are a lot of hurtful people out there, and hurtful people hurt people, right?

Erin (Guest):

Yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

When you put out a piece of content, you get really bad feedback, bad, negative feedback, haters, critics, trolls that really make your life difficult, cyberbullying we call it. Then the third one, it's a big one, addiction. There are some numbers to prove that. If you don't believe you're addicted, just check how many times you check your social media. You know whether you're addicted. Erin, maybe let's focus on the first one first, inadequacy. What's the science behind it? Why do we feel that way? Why do we... I thought social media is supposed to make us feel good, but why the more we surf social media, the more sucky we feel sometimes of ourselves?

Erin (Guest):

I mean, I still do sometimes, actually, because I am still using social media a lot, although I've cut back a lot. I have a different way of approaching it and using it nowadays, but I still remember when I first started using... I'm not going to count Myspace. I'm just revealing my age here.

Eric Feng (Host):

Oh my God, you just did. It's okay. I also know Myspace. We're probably the same generation.

Erin (Guest):

Let's talk about Facebook. Looking back, there was a stark difference between how I used Facebook before meditation, before mindfulness and after. Before mindfulness, before meditation, I remember I was really active, and I would really put myself out there. I would always feel that there was a certain image that I had to portray on social media, and this image that I had attached myself to, this identity was very much what I thought other people saw me. It wasn't really what I want it to be. Maybe I had no idea what I want it to be. But essentially, I was going through the same thing as well.

Erin (Guest):

I was looking at what my friends, what my peers, they were putting up there. There was constant comparing, right? We can never see everything or anything as it is. For example, when looking at this highly sought after cup, a cup is just a cup, but we have to say, "Oh, he has such gorgeous black cup with gold rims, and it's gorgeous. Why don't I have that?" We are very... It's also... I wouldn't call it natural, but we are very conditioned to add a lot of things, a lot of spices to our perceptions. Everything that comes into our awareness, we want to add a lot of layers, so a man is not just a man.

Erin (Guest):

It's how attractive he is, how intelligent he is. We see everything this way. I think social media exacerbates that because you get to curate stuff. You get to curate stuff, and that's when you want to show the best side of yourself, or you see the best sight of yourself. That's where the comparison comes. I would say that it's not new, this feeling of inadequacy. Back in school before we had the internet, when we had friends, we would constantly compare. What's she wearing? What's he wearing? What brand-

Eric Feng (Host):

That's so true. How come this pencil case... You press that button, and that thing will come out. Do you remember that there's this pencil case, 1980s?

Erin (Guest):

Yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

Then we're like, "How come my pencil case is not as nice?" But initially, before I saw his pencil case, I was happy with mine.

Erin (Guest):

Exactly.

Eric Feng (Host):

You're saying that that's human nature, that we have a tendency to compare?

Erin (Guest):

I wouldn't call it human nature. I'm very cautious about that word. I think it's just something that we have built up over the-

Eric Feng (Host):

Conditioned.

Erin (Guest):

Conditioned, absolutely.

Eric Feng (Host):

They say that comparison is a joy stealer, right?

Erin (Guest):

It is. It definitely is.

Eric Feng (Host):

Now, we understand that we are conditioned to compare, and comparison actually have led us somewhere. When we compare our friends, I remember our parents would go like, "See, your cousin is so smart, studying so much."

Erin (Guest):

So smart. What are you doing?

Eric Feng (Host):

What are you doing? Then you do the same, so you study hard, and you got the results. Then you start to realize that, "Maybe comparison is not bad," but you're right. Social media allowed us to see that in Chinese [foreign language 00:31:10]. One mountain is always going to be higher than the other, so the differences start to be very apparent.

Erin (Guest):

It gets magnified, I think, with the social media.

Eric Feng (Host):

Because what we see on social media may not always be real.

Erin (Guest):

Exactly.

Eric Feng (Host):

Question now is how do we deal with that? How do we make sure that when we go on social media, we don't feel those inadequacies and that we're not good enough? Is that practice that we can...

Erin (Guest):

I think a practice in mindful awareness lays the groundwork for everything, including feeling inadequate on social media. I mean, even now, as a mindfulness teacher, people see me as a wellness coach, a wellness teacher. I am privy to a lot of comparisons in the wellness circle as well. If you look at Instagram, you look at Facebook, and look at the other coaches out there, they post super beautiful pictures of their products, of themselves, and you have to have a certain identity. You have to dress a certain way. You have to look a certain way. Even when we're advocating wellness of the mind, there's a lot of this going on, right?

Erin (Guest):

How do you manage all this? It's not that we can escape from these struggles or these sufferings. Our practice in mindfulness helps a lot in being able to see through all the layers of narratives that you are placing on yourself, or every experience that comes our way, and to always challenge these narratives, to challenge these perceptions. There are always three questions that I like to ask. I didn't come up with these three questions, but I've read them a lot. I find that to be very, very helpful. Is it true? Is it helpful? Is it necessary? I think these three questions are very helpful, especially for addressing feelings of inadequacy, because these are narratives.

Erin (Guest):

It's not the truth, right? It's not the truth. When you feel, "I'm not good enough," we always want to challenge that. It's like you're just piercing through some layers of membrane or fog or something to get to-

Eric Feng (Host):

It's like a shining light on that one, right?

Erin (Guest):

... through what it really is. Is it true that I'm not good enough? Is this thought, is this perception helpful? Is it necessary?

Eric Feng (Host):

The second one is so powerful. What do you mean by is it necessary? Is this thought necessary?

Erin (Guest):

Is it necessary for your situation? Let's say I'm trying to do good work out there, so I'm trying to put up an Instagram post about mindfulness and everything, but I'm constantly comparing my post to some other influencer's posts, for example. I need to ask myself, "Is this necessary, or have I forgotten my intention of this work?"

Eric Feng (Host):

Is the comparison necessary?

Erin (Guest):

Yes. Yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

That question leads back to intention. Like, "Wait a second. I'm doing all this because I want to be better than another wellness coach. Am I doing it better, because I want to fulfill my mission?"

Erin (Guest):

Or are you doing this because you want to help serve the market you're meant to serve?

Eric Feng (Host):

Beautiful. Would you mind recapping, again, what are the three questions that we need to ask ourself to question that comparison thought?

Erin (Guest):

Is it true? Is it helpful? Is it necessary?

Eric Feng (Host):

Beautiful. Now, second one, second bad-

Erin (Guest):

Yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

I call it the second baddy of social media, trolls, haters, a lot of people out there, right? I remember when I put out a video, a positive video, and I'm telling people, "Hey, pressure produces power. It's okay to have pressure." Then I get people questioning, "Is this guy ching chong? He's the CEO of know it all [inaudible 00:34:46]." [crosstalk 00:34:48] negative comments. Of course, there are positive comments, but you know how it is. We tend to focus on that little dust.

Erin (Guest):

We're wired to do that actually.

Eric Feng (Host):

Why? Why are we wired to focus on a bad? On an entire week, there could be 10 things that happened that they were good that happened, but that one thing that was bad, that was the only thing we focus on. Why?

Erin (Guest):

There is this author called Rick Hanson. He studies the brain. He's a meditator. He wrote this book called the Buddha's Brain. He has this analogy for how the brain is wired. He says that when it comes to positive, pleasant experiences, the mind is like Teflon. You know Teflon? We coat it on nonstick pans, so everything just slides off, right? Positive things happen to us, and we just-

Eric Feng (Host):

Slides off.

Erin (Guest):

We forget it, or we don't notice it at all. But when it comes to negative experiences, our mind is like Velcro. It just sticks.

Eric Feng (Host):

Such an amazing analogy.

Erin (Guest):

It is. It is. It goes back to evolutionarily speaking, we are wired to look out for dangers or threats, so we tend to focus more just so that we can survive. We can see it as a survival, but the mind doesn't differentiate between a tiger that jumps out in us and a nasty comment that doesn't really have to do anything, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

So true. Yes.

Erin (Guest):

Being able to understand this and being able to practice, again, non-judgmental awareness is a good thing. Just seeing a comment as a comment, words as words, and being able to keep revisiting those three questions.

Eric Feng (Host):

We can practice the same thing as well.

Erin (Guest):

Absolutely.

Eric Feng (Host):

Number one we need to understand is we are wired to remember the bad stuff more.

Erin (Guest):

Yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

It doesn't mean that the bad stuff is that big.

Erin (Guest):

We tend to magnify them just so that we can survive better. We run away, or we fight it or something. That's the classic fight, flight, freeze response.

Eric Feng (Host):

I see. Let's say for example 10 things... I got 10 positive comments, but one really negative comment. I'll look at that comment, and then I'll ask the same three questions.

Erin (Guest):

Try it.

Eric Feng (Host):

First one is is it true?

Erin (Guest):

They called you, what, CEO of know it all, right? Is it true.

Eric Feng (Host):

Well he's right. I'm not a CEO of know it all. That was not the intention on me wanting to be a CEO of know it all. That's not true. That's right.

Erin (Guest):

There you. There you go.

Eric Feng (Host):

Number two, is it helpful?

Erin (Guest):

Is it helpful? You can think of is this... You can think of it from your perspective or the troll's perspective. From your own perspective, if you're affected by it and if you're feeling badly about yourself, you want to ask yourself, "Is this helpful?"

Eric Feng (Host):

Is this emotion that I'm feeling right now helpful? Obviously not. It's running my day. Then the last question would be is it necessary? Is it necessary for me to let it ruin my day?

Erin (Guest):

Yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

Then I will say of course not. Then I will think back to my mission or my purpose. It was the intention of me creating this video, to help the people that wants to be helped, so go and celebrate it. Wow. Now, it seems like all that happens in that one moment, in that second. Is that true? Is that what mindfulness is about?

Erin (Guest):

It's always in the moment, and it's always moment by moment, because an experience doesn't just last one moment. It can just keep continuing. Let's say the moment you see that troll's message, it's a bullying message. It triggers a certain reaction in you, and you need to know it in the present moment. You need to note there and then that, "Oh, I'm having this reaction," and you observe yourself.

Eric Feng (Host):

You got triggered.

Erin (Guest):

You need to observe yourself in each moment. For example, you're feeling... Let's say your... Name me an emotion that you may feel.

Eric Feng (Host):

Anxiety.

Erin (Guest):

Anxiety, good. When you feel anxiety, anxiety can be an emotion, right? Does anxiety have a feeling in your body?

Eric Feng (Host):

Yes, there's a heaviness in the chest. That's an interesting question. No one has asked me that. I just thought an anxiety is anxiety, a worry is a worry, but if it's a physical sensation, then I feel heightened breathing, shallow reading a little bit. Now, I felt a little bit of pressure in the chest.

Erin (Guest):

There's a lot going on in the body. But typically, we don't notice that, because we're in the head space, and when we are in the head space and stuck here all the time, anxiety can develop into a lot of ruminative thoughts, and you start to ruminate over this troll's comments.

Eric Feng (Host):

Their thought.

Erin (Guest):

Am I not good enough? Am I a fraud? Am I an impostor? What am I doing? It can just go on and on.

Eric Feng (Host):

Spiral downwards.

Erin (Guest):

Yes. But when we learn to shift our attention to the body level, the physical level, we understand what the body is going through. We understand what the body is trying to tell us, "Oh, there is anxiety here, but this anxiety is not me. It's not my identity. It is something that's... It's a state of body, state of mind that's happening right now." I learned to observe it without further reacting to what I'm observing. I just rest with it just like... We're going back to what we discussed at the start of the session.

Eric Feng (Host):

Acceptance.

Erin (Guest):

Resting with it, acceptance, non-judgmental awareness, and sooner or later, this is going to pass.

Eric Feng (Host):

I see. Sometimes, what's very interesting is I will have a good day, and then I will start thinking about, "Oh, but in two weeks time... No, two day's time, I'm going to deliver a speech that I may not enjoy, and then I will just feel a little bit gloomy. I will feel a bit sad. I want to say I'll feel a bit worried, and it affects the whole day. What you're saying is that the next time around is to recognize when there's a switch of emotion. Like, suddenly, I feel a certain emotion, anxiety.

Erin (Guest):

You may not suddenly feel the emotion. It may be very subtle. It may build up. It's something that builds up over time. As we practice mindful awareness of ourselves, everyday awareness gets sharper and sharper. That's when we're able to notice even the slightest shifts in our moods and emotions. The earlier that you detect them, the earlier that you notice them, the more unlikely that you will become overwhelmed by them, because you're addressing them early.

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it. Which is also a reason why we need to practice mindfulness as a habit to pay attention to things, because if we keep paying attention to how we feel, then it becomes a habit.

Erin (Guest):

Yes. I would call it a skill more than a habit.

Eric Feng (Host):

Skill.

Erin (Guest):

It's just like you learn to swim. The more you swim, the better you get at it, the better you are able to survive if you were to get dumped in the ocean.

Eric Feng (Host):

That's true.

Erin (Guest):

The same with mindful awareness, the more you practice it as a skill, the more easily you will notice these shifts in your internal landscape in times of stress.

Eric Feng (Host):

Very cool. Let's say I'm doing my thing, and then it's supposed to be a good day. I notice that wait, wait, wait, my breathing is getting shallower. I'm getting a little bit feisty, or there's a physical tightness in the chest. I recognize that, and then that's when I will take note, "Wait, what was I thinking?" A thought that led to that, is that part of-

Erin (Guest):

You may not need to analyze your thoughts. You may just notice that, "Oh, I have these negative thoughts coming in?" You just notice them. Thoughts are thoughts. They don't define you. If we were to give too much attachment to our thoughts, let's say a thought comes in, "I'm not good enough." Imagine if you were to attach to this thought, and believe it and start believing it. It overwhelms you. That's where the trouble starts.

Eric Feng (Host):

It seems like we get distracted a lot by those random thoughts. Like what you say, "I'm not good enough," or "Oh my God, tomorrow, you got a speech. You're not prepared," or, "They're not going to like that speech," but they're really very random thoughts. I'm going to practice the same thing. Number one, is it true? I'll ask myself, "Wait, is it true that thought?" What if I said, "Wait, it's justified?" Then I could do something about it, right?

Erin (Guest):

Ask the next question.

Eric Feng (Host):

Which is is it helpful? Is that thought helpful? Then I probably will say, "No, because right now, I'm doing a podcast. It's not helpful for me to think about tomorrow's speech, because tomorrow's tomorrow." Is it necessary for me to entertain it? Obviously not. I want to be present.

Erin (Guest):

There you go.

Eric Feng (Host):

My God, these three powerful questions are useful. Guys, I tell you, I'm equally noob like all of you. I'm not assuming you guys are noob, but I'm just saying that... I was telling Erin offline this that, "Hey, you know what, I'm looking forward to this conversation, because mindfulness is something that I know logically is important, but I haven't internalized it or have a profound experience of it yet." I really appreciate her patience.

Erin (Guest):

I do want to add too, Eric, that the three questions are very helpful. When we first start to understand it, it's like, "Wow." There's this epiphany feeling, but it's really not easy to practice it when the situation comes, because we are so used to reacting. We're reacting every single day, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

That's true.

Erin (Guest):

If let's say you're just so used to spiraling down, very likely, even though in that one moment, you can ask yourself these three questions, and you're trying to process it in a wiser way, in a more logical way. But the next moment comes, you're going to start reacting again, because you're so accustomed to this conditioning.

Eric Feng (Host):

What can we do?

Erin (Guest):

You have to keep practicing. There are different skills in mindfulness to help you to do that.

Eric Feng (Host):

Would you be able to share one? Before you share that, you reminded me of something. There was a scene in Spider Man where the guy was about to punch him, and because he's fast, he was everything slowed down so much. He was able to analyze that punch and go hit. Should I avoid the punch, or should I just punch him back? Would you say that that's mindfulness, where something hit you, a thought, a person, a comment? Most of us just get bashed by the thought, but if we have mindfulness, we're able to slow down that moment and go, "Huh, how do I want to react? Well, I can react the default way, which is to be upset, which is my standard way, or I could try something new."

Eric Feng (Host):

Would you say that that's mindfulness, that slowing down?

Erin (Guest):

That would be experienced by a really, really skilled mindfulness master.

Eric Feng (Host):

Damn, I wish I'm a Zen monk or something.

Erin (Guest):

Let me... This is a great example, but let me break it up-

Eric Feng (Host):

Yes, please.

Erin (Guest):

... break this down even further. I'm going to change the scenario a little bit. Let's say you are bullying me right now. You've made a nasty remark at me that's uncalled for, and it evokes a certain reaction in me. What's happening in me in this moment is that I have negative thoughts coming in. "How could he say that? What did I do to deserve this? Why me?" I'm feeling emotions of anger, resentment, shame, anxiety. I'm feeling all these things in my body. My chest tightens. My breath quickens. I have this pit in my stomach. I'm also at the same time feeling my fist clenching at this moment, because of all the stress that I'm feeling.

Erin (Guest):

I'm noticing myself picking up my fist, and about to throw a punch right in your face. Now, usually, this whole process takes, what, one second, two second, and you're just gone. You explode, and you just punch, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

Punch.

Erin (Guest):

You don't want that. You don't want that, because it's-

Eric Feng (Host):

I don't want that.

Erin (Guest):

It's not helpful. It's not necessary. If you're able to have this mindful awareness, you'll be able to know the very moment when your fist starts tightening and even before that. Before the fist starts to tighten, you'll be able to notice the sinking pit in your stomach. You notice the emotions arising in you. You notice the thoughts coming in you. It's like backtracking in your experience. It's a little bit like that slowing down, and you're able to detect all these in the moment. One moment at a time, you're noticing all these things happening. This is the mindful awareness that we are cultivating.

Eric Feng (Host):

The minute you notice it, you already have a chance to change it.

Erin (Guest):

Yes. Absolutely.

Eric Feng (Host):

Beautiful. Now, you mentioned that there are a series of things that we could start practicing to gain that skill. Was that something that we can start trying for our listeners and people watching this?

Erin (Guest):

Absolutely. A lot of people tell me that they don't have time for mindfulness.

Eric Feng (Host):

Me and the rest of us too.

Erin (Guest):

I would say that it's absolutely not true. To begin with, I do recognize that if we want to be good at it, we have to invest time and effort. There's no qualms about that.

Eric Feng (Host):

100%.

Erin (Guest):

But for a start, we could easily work mindfulness into our day to day routine activities, because we are cultivating awareness. In order to be aware, we have to get ourselves out of autopilot. All the reactions that we have towards stress is out of autopilot. Autopilot is where we have no idea what's happening. That means we're not aware. These are like a seesaw relationship. When you're aware, you're not on autopilot. When you're on autopilot, you're not aware. When we want to get ourselves out of autopilot, we have to be aware of what is going on around us and within us. One of the easiest ways is to build this practice into your day to day activities.

Erin (Guest):

For example, when you are drinking water, how do you know you're drinking water? That's a silly question. This is a new question, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

How do I know I'm drinking water? Now, I'm picking up the cup, and I'm going to drink a sip of water. I will notice that I'm drinking water.

Erin (Guest):

What do you notice?

Eric Feng (Host):

The water is cool. The lid is cool. The texture of the cup is nice.

Erin (Guest):

Very good. Very good. You have awareness right now, but how do we usually drink water? Let's say we're in a conversation. We don't notice, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

I don't even notice all these things. I'll just gulp the water, and hopefully I don't choke. That's it.

Erin (Guest):

Absolutely. You're on autopilot there and then, right? You don't know that you're doing this thing. When we cultivate awareness, every single thing that we do, we have to do with awareness as well. To do this, it is best if we do try to do things one thing at a time, and just open our senses. Our senses are part of the body. When you pay attention to the senses, you're in the present, because the body will always tell you that you're present. The mind can bring you to the best and the worst places, but the body always tells you that, "Hey, I'm here. I'm present."

Eric Feng (Host):

That's right. I know what I'm doing. I'm interviewing you, but I'm paying attention to my breathing, because for the last 45 minutes-

Erin (Guest):

Absolutely.

Eric Feng (Host):

... I probably wasn't noticing that I was breathing, but as I'm talking to you right now, I'm breathing.

Erin (Guest):

There you go.

Eric Feng (Host):

I feel calm. Gosh, this is amazing. I wish I met you way before.

Erin (Guest):

It's never too late, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

It's never too late. We're always on time. Now, let's move on to the last part of our interview, which is social media addiction. Do you know how much time you spend on social media every day? Do you actually check?

Erin (Guest):

No, I don't check, but a lot.

Eric Feng (Host):

A lot.

Erin (Guest):

A lot, yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

Now, according to Hootsuite, Hootsuite did a social report in 2020, which is last year. We are spending a lot of time on social media. They break it down by country. Here in Singapore, on average, we spend about two hours and eight minutes on social media, two hours and eight minutes non stop. I mean, add up together, two hours, eight minutes. The one with the most... Maybe I increased. Hong Kong is one hour 47 minutes. That's lesser than Singapore. Vietnam is two hour 32 minutes. Next is Thailand, two hours 55 minutes, and then Malaysia, two hours 58 minutes. That's close to three hours.

Eric Feng (Host):

Indonesia, number two, ranked number two, three hours 26 minutes. Right at the top here in Asia, it's Philippines, four hours and 12 minutes a day.

Erin (Guest):

Wow.

Eric Feng (Host):

Contrast that with Japan that only spends 45 minutes a day.

Erin (Guest):

Wow, That's amazing.

Eric Feng (Host):

But guess what, do you remember a lot of the Zen practices... I might be stereotyping, but I always feel that that makes sense, because whenever I'm in Japan, I notice that people take their time to eat food. People actually read on the train. You don't see that a lot with us here in Singapore. The fact is this, the numbers don't lie. It says that we spent a tremendous amount of time on social media. There was another report. I can't remember what's that report, but I remember the number that on average, we touch our phone 140 times a day.

Erin (Guest):

I remember the figure to be 150 for millennials.

Eric Feng (Host):

Well, 140 was average, millennials, 150. You time it 150, that's probably touching their phone every 10 minutes. It's crazy. There is a certain addiction, right? First of all, how do we get out of that? How do we stop being so addicted to social media? How do we stop wanting to check updates on the story? I noticed myself, TikTok is very, very dangerous. Once you start doing TikTok, you swipe, you swipe, you swipe. You can't stop because TikTok somehow know what videos you like, and you just can't stop. How do you stop that?

Erin (Guest):

Yes. I think it's also how they manipulate the data. They feed you things that-

Eric Feng (Host):

That you want to to see.

Erin (Guest):

... yes, you want to see or think you want to see, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

Good point.

Erin (Guest):

The fact that the whole interface system is built to just keep feeding that pleasure to you, you never know what's going to come up. I've read somewhere and seen videos about analogy of building social media like jackpot so that every time we refresh the screen, something new comes up. You don't know what's coming up, and there's always that element of surprise and pleasure.

Eric Feng (Host):

So true. I think it was the book Nir Eyal who wrote the book Hooked. He says this is called variable reward. When you don't know what reward you'll get, they got you hooked.

Erin (Guest):

Yes. Absolutely.

Eric Feng (Host):

Dammit, social media is so brilliant. All right.

Erin (Guest):

It is brilliant. It is brilliant. It's also up to us how we want to use it.

Eric Feng (Host):

Can you teach us how do we not get addicted to social media? How do we get back... How do we put ourselves back on the control seat, the driving seat?

Erin (Guest):

I think in addictions in general, regardless of whether it's social media or food or drinks or anything else, we can get addicted to virtually anything. The first step to breaking out of addiction is always to notice, is to always to be aware. We are addicted because we are on autopilot. That's why we keep going after that.

Eric Feng (Host):

[inaudible 00:53:29].

Erin (Guest):

Yes. Yes. Being aware. It helps to notice the moments leading up to ourselves reaching for that reward. I'm going to take myself as an example. Then we can apply it to social media. Let's say this is a glass of wine, right? I used to be really addicted to this, because this was my perceived solution to stress, which is not true at all. But if I were to do this on autopilot, I wouldn't even notice myself picking up this drink, and drinking it.

Eric Feng (Host):

That's so true.

Erin (Guest):

I don't know how I'm consuming it. But with awareness, not only am I noticing myself drinking it, I would notice the moments of that buildup towards that craving. Usually, this craving resides in the body, on the body level. Understanding the body helps a lot, I find, through my practice experience with managing addictions, because we feel that pleasure in the body. We feel that craving for that pleasure. I don't really crave for wine or beer. I crave for the pleasure that I get from it, and this pleasure resides in the body, so being able to read your body, to understand it, just to be aware of it is the first step.

Erin (Guest):

Once I feel that, I know what triggers me to reach for that. It could be a thought coming in, right? Like, "Oh, I can't stand this anymore." Then a feeling, maybe there's a pit in my stomach that says, "Oh, I need a drink right now." If I'm able to observe this, I can make the decision.

Eric Feng (Host):

Oh my god.

Erin (Guest):

Do I want to reach for that, or not? If I can rest with this, I'm not reacting to it by reaching for it.

Eric Feng (Host):

Very nice. What's the trigger? Usually, it's a physical reaction. You've taught us this right at the beginning to learn how to sit with it, sit with that discomfort or that trigger, so we don't have to go into autopilot of the response.

Erin (Guest):

Yes. This applies to social media. What leads you to reach for that phone?

Eric Feng (Host):

For me, it's boredom, when I get bored. I can't be bored. I hate being bored. I always need to do something, so boredom. I've never noticed the physical part of boredom. I don't know how I feel it.

Erin (Guest):

You can notice it the next time. Just sit-

Eric Feng (Host):

Tonight.

Erin (Guest):

Yes, tonight. Absolutely.

Eric Feng (Host):

Tonight. I will text you. I'll try to figure out where that feeling... It's a feeling. It's not a thought.

Erin (Guest):

It could be a thought. It could be a thought. Usually, body sensations are here all the time. It's just a matter of whether we notice them or not. When you have thoughts coming in, when there's a reaction in you, there will be a body sensation.

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay, so paying attention to that, and then learning how to be... Recognizing it will be one. I might still succumb to watching the Netflix or going to social media, but what you're saying is that as I notice it, it allows me to then change my reaction.

Erin (Guest):

Why don't you try this tonight? Just sit and do nothing for 10 minutes.

Eric Feng (Host):

Gosh, that will be very difficult. Journaling... Do nothing. I mean, there's no writing my thoughts. Sit 10 minutes.

Erin (Guest):

Do nothing. Just sit and just see what happens. Nobody ever dies from boredom. Just see what happens.

Eric Feng (Host):

This is so quotable. Oh God. You know what, Ryan, that's a [inaudible 00:56:41] for you, me doing nothing for 10 minutes. I'm going to try that, and we're going to put it in the YouTube video right now. I'll let you know if it even works.

Erin (Guest):

See what you notice, what thoughts come in. See what you feel in the body, what emotions besides boredom come in. Is there anxiety? Is there frustration? Is there fear? How do you tend to want to behave when you're bored, when boredom is here? Do you... You notice your behaviors. Reach for the phone, reach for Netflix or whatever.

Eric Feng (Host):

Sure. Yes. Just notice all that. That's all.

Erin (Guest):

Just learn to sit with it.

Eric Feng (Host):

Learn to be comfortable with whatever that feeling is. You can't even reach-

Erin (Guest):

You don't necessarily have to be comfortable. You just have to observe it one moment at a time.

Eric Feng (Host):

We'll try. It's an experiment. I love this. Oh my God, you're so cool. You make mindfulness so fun. I always thought that mindfulness is boring, but you make it fun. Now, so we have covered so much. I really appreciate that we went really deep into your mindfulness journey, and allowing us to understand what mindfulness is, allowing us to understand your Genesis, and then going into that three really bad side, the dark side of social media, inadequacy, and then we have addiction, and then we also have trolls. I'm pretty sure by now, a lot of listeners and people watching us on the interview, they want to work on their mindfulness.

Eric Feng (Host):

They want to get started. Would you recommend... You gave us a practice. Those of you who have bought, you do that 10 minutes thing as well, or start noticing, start being more mindful with the little things that you do. Is there books that we can read? Would you recommend one or two for us?

Erin (Guest):

I have two that I brought today. For those of us who may be interested in a more systematic way of learning, so I would recommend the eight-week Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction Program. It's being offered throughout the world. It's highly accessible to everyone. This book is written about MBSR by the founder of MBSR, Professor Jon Kabat-Zinn.

Eric Feng (Host):

The title of the book.

Erin (Guest):

The title is Full Catastrophe Living.

Eric Feng (Host):

Gosh, what a word.

Erin (Guest):

What a powerful title, right? Essentially, you need to confront a full catastrophe of living as a human being.

Eric Feng (Host):

100%. It says there how to cope with stress, pain and illness using mindfulness meditation.

Erin (Guest):

Yes. This is a really thick book. It's like a mountain to get through, but this is what I recommend or any of Jon Kabat-Zinn's books is great, is-

Eric Feng (Host):

Fantastic. We'd put it in the show notes. You have another one you brought.

Erin (Guest):

Yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

By the way, guys, we should say it's thick. It's really thick. Let me tell you how many pages there are. It's 650 pages. I could do that.

Erin (Guest):

I can give you some more titles that are easier to read by Jon Kabat-Zinn, but this is the one that I recommend.

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it.

Erin (Guest):

Another one for those of you who are intellectually more curious about the science behind mindfulness and meditation, this is a really good book, The Science of Meditation: How to Change Your Brain, Mind and Body by Daniel Goleman and Richard Davidson.

Eric Feng (Host):

Fantastic.

Erin (Guest):

This tells you all the science-based findings of meditation, very, very interesting book.

Eric Feng (Host):

Now, what about people who don't like to read, but they are doers? Is there an app that we can download for us to do daily, one-minute mindfulness exercises, or do you offer those kind of videos? Where can we go?

Erin (Guest):

Well, there are actually many apps out there that can help you achieve that and help you to sustain a consistent daily practice, so I could recommend two that I am a part of. One is MindFi, which is a locally developed app. It's great for people who perceive yourself to have no time. You're in a rush all the time.

Eric Feng (Host):

That's everyone.

Erin (Guest):

You have bite-sized practices, very, very cool app. Another one-

Eric Feng (Host):

Can you spell that for us?

Erin (Guest):

Yes. It's WiFi but MindFi.

Eric Feng (Host):

That's so cool.

Erin (Guest):

It is.

Eric Feng (Host):

I mean, we're always asking for WiFi. I mean-

Erin (Guest):

Yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

Your mind is like a WiFi, too.

Erin (Guest):

Yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

Mind and fi, F-I.

Erin (Guest):

MindFi, yes. That's one.

Eric Feng (Host):

Love it.

Erin (Guest):

The other one is more general, Insight Timer app. It's called Insight Timer. I have a teacher profile on that. You can join me for live classes. You can listen to some of the recordings that I have, audio recordings, and just follow that. I have a series of recordings on that, and then you just play and you follow.

Eric Feng (Host):

That's awesome. Again, how to spell that because for those of them listening to us in the podcast.

Erin (Guest):

Insight, you gain insight, and timer.

Eric Feng (Host):

T-I-M-E-R.

Erin (Guest):

Yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

I'm going to download these two apps.

Erin (Guest):

Yes. Great.

Eric Feng (Host):

You know what, thank you so much. Thank you so much, Erin. Personally, I've benefited so much from your conversation.

Erin (Guest):

I'm glad.

Eric Feng (Host):

As I said, you make mindfulness fun. I really wish you all the best in your career. I really believe that you're going to help so many stressed-out working professionals, including those people who are listening to you. What's the best way to reach out to you?

Erin (Guest):

Social media?

Eric Feng (Host):

Yes, social media, which platform.

Erin (Guest):

I use LinkedIn a lot. You can just search Erin Lee mindfulness, and you should get to me.

Eric Feng (Host):

That's how I reached out to her anyway. LinkedIn.

Erin (Guest):

Yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

Thank you so much. Bye, bye.

Erin (Guest):

Thank you, Eric. Yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

Thank you.

Erin (Guest):

Thank you.

Eric Feng (Host):

There you have it, Erin Lee. I thoroughly enjoyed today's conversation. If you are someone that's very new to mindfulness, I think like me, you're very excited by what she has shared. I love her analogies. I think one of my favorite analogies was the Teflon and the Velcro that pleasures or the good things tend to slide away, and then pain tend to stick with you, and therefore it gets amplified. It doesn't really mean that your life sucks. It's just the way your brain wires. I think one thing that she taught me, it's about learning how to pay attention to things, because wherever that you pay attention to amplify.

Eric Feng (Host):

I'll definitely want to pay attention to more of the good moments in my life. Something practical that I've also picked up from her is that three-part question, that really I feel was... It's going to help me a lot in preventing myself to go into autopilot mode. The first one is whenever you receive a negative comment, or you feel a certain emotion, and you're about to react, ask yourself, "Is it true?" Then the second one is, "Is it helpful?" Then the last one is, "Is it really necessary?"

Eric Feng (Host):

Go try out this three-part question. If you'd like to take the challenge that she just gave me, go try that 10-minute exercise as well. Sit, do nothing for 10 minutes, and pay attention to how you feel. Let me know in the comment section. We do videos like this every week. If you like conversations like this, remember to hit the subscribe button, switch on notification, and I'll see you at the next video.