16. How to gain free publicity for your business - Joel Lim

Do you want to find out how you can generate free publicity for your business or personal brand? Or perhaps you're looking for advice on how to deal with bad press and negativity online. If so, you will love this episode!

In this episode of #HighlySoughtAfter, I have a chat with public relations professional Joel Lim who got a lot of positive attention from the media and public during the General Elections 2020 here in Singapore. His political commentary was picked up and featured in Channel News Asia, The Straits Times, and The Business Times.

Joel is also the host of a few podcasts, such as The Naughty Prude, and most recently his ‘I Have A Question’ YouTube educational series exploring current affairs and hot button issues in Singapore, in which he featured a minister on the show. Joel is also a Senior Public Relations and Marketing Executive at Gushcloud, while also working on ZYRUP, one of the largest digital entertainment publications. 

In today’s interview, he will be answering three key questions. Number one, how do you get positive publicity for your business. Number two, how do you prepare for a media interview. And number three, how do you deal with bad press and negativity online.

Hint: Listen in at 27:19 where Joel shares an insider’s secret on how you can attract the media’s attention and gain free publicity for your personal brand or business.

Also listen out for Joel’s answers to the following questions:

• Walk our listeners through what exactly happened during the General Elections 2020 that shot you to fame? – 1:17
• What led you to being so fascinated and interested in the world of PR? – 6:57
• Why do you think a business must consider publicity as part of their marketing campaign? Why can’t they just rely on social media and paid ads? - 12:21
• What are the different types of publicity that a person or business can get? - 14:57
• As a business or personality, how can we capture the attention of media? – 17:46
• What are some tips you can give us in being featured in the media? - 22:12
• As a personality, how do I attract media’s attention? – 27:19
• Let’s say we secure a media interview, what are some of the steps that we need to bear in mind as we prepare? – 30:39
• So, if I were to get a difficult question, is there a method on how to answer those questions? – 38:53
• Let’s say we’re the target of bad press, how can we deal with it? Can we talk our way out of it? – 46:12
• Would you say to de-escalate the situation and to make people calm down it is to apologise? – 52:15
• I’ve seen some influencers or personalities who got a bad reputation, and then they disappear for a while and then came back stronger. Is there a way to do that? – 54:50
• Is there a book or video the audience could listen to in improving their PR skills? – 1:03:25

If you want to keep in touch with Joel, you can reach him on Instagram @limxjoel. You can also find his political analysis of the General Elections 2020 on his Instagram Story Highlights, as well as how one should manage a PR crisis. You can also catch Joel’s podcast The Naughty Prude on Spotify.

Read these books to become highly sought after in your own industry -> www.pickericsbrain.com

Thank you for listening to this episode of #HighlySoughtAfter! 

If you enjoyed this episode, please help me hit the ‘subscribe’ button if you’re listening on Apple Podcasts or hit the ‘follow’ button if you are listening on Spotify. 
 
I would also love to hear your biggest takeaway from this episode! Here’s how: take a screenshot of you listening to #HighlySoughtAfter and tag me on Instagram. My handle is @ericgoesglobal. This way, I can personally thank you!

Transcript

Eric Feng (Host):

In this episode of #HighlySoughtAfter, I have a chat with public relations professional, Joel Lim, who got a lot of positive attention from the media and public during the general elections 2020 here in Singapore. His political commentary was picked up and featured in Channel News Asia, The Straits Times, Business Times. Joel is also the host of a few podcasts, one of which is my favorite, The Naughty Prude, and most recently, his I Have a Question YouTube educational series, exploring current affairs and hot button issues in Singapore, in which he featured a minister on the show. Joel is also a senior public relations and marketing executive at Gushcloud while also working on ZYRUP, one of the largest digital entertainment publications. 

In today's interview, he will be answering three key questions. Number one, how do you get positive publicity for your business? Number two, how do you prepare for a media interview? And number three, how do you deal with bad press and online negativity? So ladies and gentlemen, Joel Lim.

Joel Lim (Guest):

What's up?

Eric Feng (Host):

What's up?

Joel Lim (Guest):

Thanks for having me on the podcast.

Eric Feng (Host):

Most welcome. I've been wanting to talk to you ever since 2020, GE2020. So maybe walk our listeners through. What exactly happened during the GE2020 that shot you to fame? 

Joel Lim (Guest):

First, let's revisit the time. So we were in the second break. It was our first time ever being in lockdown this long and something that all of us went through at the time was that we all just resorted to social media to kill time because there wasn't really much else to do other than to watch YouTube, watch Netflix, maybe go for some classes online, but then most of our time was really spent on social media. 

Since young, I've always been opinionated on social media and when the elections came about, literally, the first thing I posted was that you guys, I'm just going to be sharing my opinions. You already know I'm like that. Get ready. Here's a warning. If you don't my opinions, you can mute it, kind of thing. But when the election campaign first started, I remember watching a video with the Workers' Party and they released this trailer that was, I think, just 15 seconds long. No dialogue, nothing and yet when the video was launched, so many people were excited. I looked at it and I was like, "Ooh, I want to know why. I want to know why people will watch that and be excited over politics." Because I mean, we're in Singapore. 

Before GE2020, I would say that the interest in politics and Singapore was not really there. We kind of just, "Yeah, okay, cool." KP, WP, we know that they exist. But I think for the first time in GE2020, we got people excited on social media and for a political party to do that I think is something new, something fresh. And for once, when I looked at it, I already knew why. These were things that I learned in school. So for context, I was in NTU and I went into NTU under the School of Art, Design and Media. And in my second year, I said, "I really want to try something new," so I got enrolled into a double major program on under the Wee Kim Wee School of Communications where I did a second major in communications studies. 

 So on the ADM side of things, the art design media side of things, I learned how to create creative works that spoke to an audience. So you when you're a creator like a photographer or an artist or a cinematographer, what goes behind your work and how you communicate your intentions to an audience, I learned that in art school. In the communications school, I learned about, of course, marketing, public relations, and the branding of things.

 So the two schools really gave me that foundation. So when I finally watch this 15-second video, I felt like I was back in class and my professor would come to us with an assignment like break down why this is a successful video. And I remember being in class and going, "Okay, come," Pull out my Evernote and then I break down everything and tried to explain. Because I had the mode of thinking, that kind of training, when I watched that video, I knew exactly what I needed to do.

 So, with that, I was like, "Okay, you know what, because I'm always on social media [inaudible 00:04:46] anyway, let me do some funny videos for friends." At a point, it was just only for friends and I just basically shot a series of IG stories. Just very anyhow, put my phone to the laptop point using a finger or a pen or something and just explain. With that, then what I realized was that so when an IG story, usually, when you have a series of stories, the numbers will drop, right? So it's maybe like 1,000 views and you go down to maybe 600 for the next one and 300 for the next one. But for this one, specifically, I realized that it wasn't perhaps 1,000, 600, 300, then when it came down to the breakdown of the political stories, it went up to 2000. 

Eric Feng (Host):

It jumps.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yes, it jumps. And that's when I realized that, "Oh, people are sharing this." And I guess when we talk about PR, not a lot of people are putting themselves out there and talking about public relations in public and I guess I was one of those few people who were doing that. 

Eric Feng (Host):

And do it in a constructive way and educational way.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Right.

Eric Feng (Host):

Because Joel, that was exactly how I got to know you. Someone shared your Instagram story and he said that this guy make understanding politics so interesting and so relevant. And I was like, "Okay, I'll go check it out." I'm getting goosebumps when saying this, you broke down an entire 15-second video and I remembered it felt a little bit like Avengers because I'm a huge fan of Avengers. So I think that was how I got to know you, I followed you, and then eventually, became a fan of your Political Prude, which we'll talk about in a short while.

So for those of you who definitely listening to this, we pique your interest, we'll make sure that we get the links in the show notes. And photos you're watching on YouTube, you can just go down to the description to get the analysis. There's a way we can get access to the analysis. Is it still around?

Joel Lim (Guest):

For the politics one?

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah, I just put them all to my highlights.

Eric Feng (Host):

Exactly, I think it was in your IG stories.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah.

Eric Feng (Host):

So, that's Joel and, obviously, then I remember the mainstream media featured you. I remember there was a Chinese media that featured you as well.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah.

Eric Feng (Host):

That was quite a funny one. And I'm just wondering, take a few step backs, what led you to be so fascinated and so interested in the world of PR? 

Joel Lim (Guest):

Sure. I've always been excited about entertainment. I've always been excited about the world of pop culture. I think just since young, just being so enthralled by TV shows, by the rights of YouTube, I've just always been excited about it and also specifically excited about the backend things, whereby I look at someone... at the time I was growing up, there's all these pop stars like NSYNC, Britney Spears, and I look at them and I know that these people are so young. There must be a machine behind them. Yes, talent is talent, but there must be people who help make these talents into, I would say, even commodities or products that can be sold.

So that was where the interest came from, whereby I want to know what are the steps behind successful people or successful products or intellectual property, and that's where that fascination came from. Obviously, when I was younger, it was not like, "Oh, I need to know," But it's like, "I want to know what goes behind this kind of things." So I would spend maybe some time reading how Finding Nemo was made, how it was researched. So I was very excited about the creation process.

Eric Feng (Host):

The production, the creation, the behind-the-scenes.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Absolutely. And then as you grow older, and I go into university, and I got exposed to things like public relations, the creative space of a creator, all these things came together and it just made perfect sense for me to go into a world of marketing, PR, and entertainment.

Eric Feng (Host):

And at the core of it, communications, right?

Joel Lim (Guest):

Pretty much.

Eric Feng (Host):

And then image perception management. 

Joel Lim (Guest):

Absolutely, yeah.

Eric Feng (Host):

Well, we know a little bit about your backstory. We understand why you're driven to do what you do, So today, I've prepared three big questions.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Okay, I'm a bit scared. 

Eric Feng (Host):

No.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Obviously, you know that I'm the kind who will do my homework. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yes.

Joel Lim (Guest):

So I was listening to the other episodes and at first, I was a still bit hesitant to say yes to this because everyone that you've had.... I mean, you opened with Wendy. I think just not too long ago, you had the lawyer, right? 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yes. 

Joel Lim (Guest):

And all these people have been in the industries for a long time, I would say that there are veterans. In fact, I would even say that they are trailblazers, whereas when I look at where I'm at in my journey, I'm literally a baby in this industry. So I was a bit scared to be like, "Okay, if everyone else on this podcast is an expert," and I don't consider myself an expert, so I was a bit hesitant. But then I always preach to even people who work under me, my interns, I've always said, "When you are at a certain age, we are living in a world where it is no longer just the people on top who have value to bring to the table."

Eric Feng (Host):

Hundred percent.

Joel Lim (Guest):

So I gave this analogy to the interns working with me and I said. "If I'm a brand and I want to run a TikTok campaign today, will I give it to a bunch of 50, 60-year-old advertising people, suits or will I, perhaps, work with younger team with a bunch of teenagers who spend every day on TikTok?" Suddenly, the kids have value. Suddenly, they have bargaining power at the table. And suddenly they are able to compete with people who have had years and years of experience. So if I was to walk the talk and say that hey, if at any point in your career, you can say that you have value to bring, then perhaps I may not be an expert, but I want to maybe share some of the value that I can bring as well and I would say that my strength is knowing social media and how I would say the younger generation thinks. So yeah, that's why I said yes to this.

Eric Feng (Host):

I think, Joel, just precisely because of your age and because you're so immersed in that culture, I think that's one. But there's another reason why I brought you to the show. Because I feel that you are not a talker of PR, you're a practitioner of PR. You know what I mean?

Joel Lim (Guest):

Right.

Eric Feng (Host):

That means you're not just helping other people with PR, you do your own PR too. And I think today, information is Google click away. But what people want and what people pay for is experiences and experimentations and I felt that you have that and a lot of young people, if they are listening to this podcast... my mentor once said to me that if you are good enough, you're old enough and to be good enough is about clocking in 10,000 hours. You can be good at anything if you put in the time and effort. 

So let's get started. First question. If you guys did not listen to the opening, there are three parts to today's interview. Part one, we're going to find out how a business or a personality can get positive attention from the media. We're not talking about social media, we're not talking about paid ads, we're talking about free publicity from the media. That's one. Number two, if we do really secure an interview, how do we do well in an interview? Because I've seen people paying lots of money for a PR agency and any screw up in the interview. So what's the point? That's worse, right? 

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yup.

Eric Feng (Host):

And then number three is if you get some bad press, negative comments, how do we deal with it? So these are the three parts.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Got it.

Eric Feng (Host):

So let's go straight to the first point, okay? In the first place, why do you think a business must consider publicity as part of their marketing campaign? Why can't they just rely on social media and paid ads?

Joel Lim (Guest):

This is again my personal opinion and I feel like different people would have different ways to go about such things. But in my personal capacity, I've always said that we are in a world where we are transitioning from traditional to new media. But that's the key thing, it's still transitioning. I think if you if you entirely discount traditional media, then you are not doing your job properly. That's my personal opinion. In fact, I would say that rather than go into the hype of everything is digital now, look at, specifically, all the different platforms as different avenues that you can tap on. Do people still read newspapers? Yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

Yes.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Do people still watch TV? Yes. Just because you don't watch it or your friends don't watch it doesn't mean that people don't watch it. There are still people who are tuning in every single day. Do I still listen to the video? Absolutely. People are always saying podcasts killed the radio star and I really don't think it's true because every morning, I'm listening to the radio in the car. So as much as we don't want to say that... and maybe because traditional media is something we're no longer excited about. We've come to realize that it's status quo, then we take it for granted.

Eric Feng (Host):

I guess people just always chase after the next shiny object, right? 

Joel Lim (Guest):

Absolutely. 

Eric Feng (Host):

But is the typical [inaudible 00:13:53], if there's $5 and $10 on the floor, which will you pick? Why not both?

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah, right. Absolutely.

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it.

Joel Lim (Guest):

So to me, that's that. And when it comes to PR, obviously, you have things earned media. You have things paid media. Earned media is something that you don't pay for you, you earn it through public relations. And if you can have that, that value is actually way more because people would listen to something that is not an advertisement, I would say. They would trust that a little bit more than an outright ad. Again, my personal opinion. So there is value in that and I think that you cannot deny the value of... let me just repeat that. I think you cannot deny the value of all these different platforms today still.

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it. Maybe another way to put it also is paid at is still bias, right? So you got money you can advertise. But if you have money, it doesn't mean that people will give you their attention. So maybe it's more trusted.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah, I think that's why as well.

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it. We talk about publicity, right? 

Joel Lim (Guest):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Eric Feng (Host):

What are the different types of publicity that a person or a business can get? 

Joel Lim (Guest):

What do you mean?

Eric Feng (Host):

So, for example, to me, publicity could be getting interviewed. To me, it could be a mention. That means someone come to you and ask you for a quote. Is there any other ways that we can get publicity? What's the range of services?

Joel Lim (Guest):

With the world that we live in today, it can come in so many different forms. They can literally come in collaboration. It can come in, as you said, interviews. It can come in features. It can come in maybe tags on social media. It can come in... sorry, my mind is drawing a blank right now.

Eric Feng (Host):

No, but that's the thing, right? So sometimes we think like, "Oh, I want to hire a PR agent to help me." But we know we want to get positive publicity, but we don't know the form of it, the tangible form. You just pointed out the main one, which is interview, a feature article feature story. You also mentioned a mention or a tag. Which one among all the fields has the most equity?

Joel Lim (Guest):

I mean, to me, again, personal, I've always found value in a feature because that's when the journalist or the media person has dedicated time and space to you or your product or your service. That is the most valuable, I would say. But all of them are valuable, right? Even if it's just one quote, for example. Let's say that the person is running a story on perhaps...

Eric Feng (Host):

Maybe social media trends.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Exactly, and you get listed as that, you never know who's going to be reading that piece and what kind of future opportunities that can bring you, right? So it doesn't need to be a full feature on you, but that in itself puts your name out there and increases your value.

Eric Feng (Host):

I love that. 

Joel Lim (Guest):

My mic is dropping.

Eric Feng (Host):

No problem. So now we teased the topic, then we can go into the how. Do you need help? You know why the mic is dropping? Because, Joel, you're heavyweight. 

Joel Lim (Guest):

Let's carry weight. 

Eric Feng (Host):

[crosstalk 00:17:19]. You know what the beauty of podcast is that this is it. 

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah, yeah.

Eric Feng (Host):

It doesn't have to be perfect.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah, of course.

Eric Feng (Host):

You should drink some water.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Sure, sure, sure. Nice cup, by the way. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Thank you.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah, I care about this kind of things, like the texture is great.

Eric Feng (Host):

Oh my god, that's a separate topic, but I do care about quality.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Of course.

Eric Feng (Host):

But anyway, everybody got different opinions.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah.

Eric Feng (Host):

So, let's go straight into the core topic today. As a business or personality, how do we capture the attention of media?

Joel Lim (Guest):

Sure. So I think it's always... I don't know if it is an Art of War quote, but it's like knowing your opponent is half the battle won.

Eric Feng (Host):

Yes, that is from Art of War.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Maybe I'm paraphrasing it wrongly or something, but it's something like that whereby you have to know what you're getting yourself into and doing your homework. It's such a Singaporean thing to say, but it's always do your homework. So if you if you specifically say you want to get featured on media, then there's a lot of things that you can do to make that happen or by perhaps you can guarantee for it to happen, but you lay enough of the groundwork for it to-

Eric Feng (Host):

Increase the chance.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Absolutely. There are, I would say, short-term things and long-term things that you can do. So for the short-term, it's always things like okay... sorry, can we just repeat that?

Eric Feng (Host):

Sure.

Joel Lim (Guest):

In understanding what the media needs, then you understand specifically what you need to provide them. So, in terms of the media, they always need, for example, quotes from you. They will need insights, data to back it up. They will need things photos, if possible. So all these different things are what I media assets. Let's say you know that you're launching a product or a service. What you'll need to do is specifically give me the data of the product or service. Get it prepared. You will need to get the images really. You'll need to get all the different information ready so that when the opportunity comes whereby if they bite your hook or if they take a bite at your bait, you must be able to not let the fish go.

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it, because it's very time-sensitive, in a way.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Absolutely. So everything needs to be ready and you really have to be 100% prepared for if you get featured in the media. That's one. And then another short-term thing that you can do is really preparing a press release. So I would say that the press release is everything that you will need in order to convince a media person to cover you. I would say that it is the bare minimum that you will need to do if you specifically want to pitch yourself, your story, your service to the medium. 

So what is really a press release? Well, you can find out this on Google, but I can just maybe give a very quick introduction to it. So a press release is basically a one, two-page document that will detail the most important details about the product or service or the thing that you're launching or the product that you'd to tell the media to cover, and it is written in a way that is similar to how an article can look if, let's say, it's published in the media. 

What it really does, and I mean, this is me, again, this is not what I learned in school, but this is my personal experience and how I see it, is that if I'm a media person and I'm driven by KPIs like, for example, click views or readership or reader interest or I'm specifically wanting to covered hot news where I want to source out the impactful news that will affect the population, so all these different considerations will basically come into play when I look at all the different emails that I'm getting. So you must remember that there's only one journalist, but there's so many PR people. Sometimes you don't even do this job with a PR agency, you do it yourself. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Directly, yeah.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah. So can you imagine how many people... and everybody wants to be featured, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

So basically, he gets pitched a lot, right?

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah. So I would say that a journalist email inbox is probably the busiest. They get so many ideas and requests to be featured every single day, so what you pitch to them really needs to stand out.

Eric Feng (Host):

What are some tips you can give us? I mean, help us get in the mind of the journalist.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Hundred percent.
 
 Eric Feng (Host):

What should I write in my email or in my press release headline that would immediately get the person's attention?

Joel Lim (Guest):

One thing I always say is to keep it under 10 words, maximum 12 words. Really bring up the key story here. And you also need to know what platform you're pitching to. If it's, for example, a radio station, then it needs to fit their audience as well. So sometimes for a certain product or a certain launch, I can be writing 10 different press releases targeted at different media platforms. So that's one and that is bringing out the key relevant news piece to that publication. And also, to keep it short. I feel like a lot of people try to stuff as much info as possible in the headline. But if you think about it, if you can condense your entire story into 10 words, why not just do that? If I'm a journalist, and I see that, and I see that it's important, I'll be like I'll straightaway click and straightaway read it. Sometimes, your email doesn't even go past the click.

Can you imagine spending time to read every single email if you have hundreds and hundreds of emails every day? It just doesn't make sense, especially when you have to actually write the work or you have to actually film the news piece, right? So there's really just not enough time for the media to really give time and consider every single piece.

Eric Feng (Host):

So technically, we now know that we need to write in short, less words headline, less than 10 words, because we know that our main form of communication with them will definitely be email because they will see our email subject. But if we take a step back, you mentioned that we need to do our homework. If let's say I want to get featured on Business Times, what are some things I need to take note of so that I know exactly what's the angle and what's the bit?

Joel Lim (Guest):

One, definitely you need to know what's trendy. Let's say Business Times, it is a newspaper. The key baseline weather is new, so it needs to be something fresh for audiences to read about. So whatever your pitch, let's say, for example, if right now you're pitching to me payments by QR code, that's not new anymore. It's been done before by PayLah! and whatever. It's no longer a new piece for news to cover. So that's one. Relevancy. Things like, okay, so if you're saying Business Times, then most of the readers will be based in Singapore. So if you're going to be pitching a piece of news that is relevant only to, let's say, people from Batam, then it doesn't make sense to them as well.

So it's really understanding what the news outlet or media outlet covers. And here's a handy tip, and this is a homework that I do, and it's a lot of work and it's done after years of watching the media space and everything, it's about also understanding which journalists are writing about what. For example, for Straits Times, there are people who specifically only do interviews. There are specific people who only write about food. There are specific people who write about politics. So if, let's say, I am launching an F&B business, I kind of already know who will...

Eric Feng (Host):

Will write.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah, who will be the ones writing about it and these are things that you can only notice after months and months of just reading and figuring out.

Eric Feng (Host):

Maybe that's it, right? Step number one, it's about consuming the media first.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Absolutely. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Because if you want to be on that media and you don't know much about that media, how can you sing the same song with them?

Joel Lim (Guest):

Absolutely. So it's about understanding how they write, what pique their interest and everything. Sometimes you may not be able to speak to them directly, but it's a machine. There would probably be like hello@businesstimes.com or something that. So the person managing that email account will probably already know what kind of news pieces certain journalists will cover. So if you can position your press release or your news piece that can be in line with what they usually cover, then absolutely they will like oh, okay, maybe this might be of interest to you. So that's, I think, how they will usually work.

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it. So to summarize, I need to first know the media itself, who is the target audience, and, even better, know the journalists that is covering it and get a sense of what kind of news he or she has been promoting, has been writing about so we get a sense of what's his flavor. And then after that, we write from that point of angle and then get his attention through email. 

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yup, absolutely. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Fantastic. Got it. Okay, so that's what you mean by homework. What about if, let's say, we managed to secure an interview. Because you mentioned that it's about feature, right? You talk a lot about product and services. But what if I'm a personality and I want, let's say, Straits Times or I want SGAG or Mothership. Actually, I don't know if it's a good thing to be promoted on Mothership. But actually, yes, my cousin was featured on Mothership. He has this young, powerful store, two boys, and then they got looked down by the other store, their competitor store, and eventually, Mothership caught that story. So that's actually a good example where, as a personality, how do I attract media's attention? Because you mentioned products and services. What about seasonality? 

Joel Lim (Guest):

So one of the ways that the media is always looking for stories is also through social media, right? Just imagine your everyday media person will, in the past, try to get a sense of what's happening on the ground and put themselves out there. But now, because it's so easy, they go on Twitter, they go on Instagram, they go on Facebook and there are all these pieces of postings that are getting traction, so definitely the journalists are watching. They are definitely putting themselves out there, perhaps even using a burner account just to [inaudible 00:28:41] what's happening on the ground. So definitely, put yourself out there. If let's say you want to be known as a hawker, then you're definitely putting yourself out there as a hawker on social media, constantly posting and making sure that like, people know what you do so that when a time comes, let's say for example, face [inaudible 00:29:09] where suddenly people cannot eat out and a journalist needs to interview who, they will obviously interview people who eat out and also people who are F&B vendors, right? 

You want to be a person who's top of mind when they are thinking of, "Oh, I need to reach out to an F&B person." [crosstalk 00:29:28] So it's like, "Oh, yeah, I remember that person, Sos Yong Tau Fu. Let me reach out to them via Instagram." So they know where to go. Because of DM, the direct message feature-

Eric Feng (Host):

You can out to reach anyone.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Absolutely. So if you put yourself out there, it's so much easier for them to read. And also remember, when these people are working on pieces, they want to finish it fast, right? If can find a hawker in 10 minutes, I'm not going to spend two hours asking around, "Do you know any hawkers?" I will straightaway know that okay, this person gives great insights. It's very vocal. It's exactly the occupation that I need., I'm going to reach out. So you make yourself available that way. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Fantastic. So you can almost see your social media account as a demo account or a resume account where you're already constantly putting out news. 

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah, hundred percent.

Eric Feng (Host):

And that, number one, creates visibility, familiarity with you. But number two is that if that post actually go viral, you will anyway be seen. The media will want to cover that.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah, hundred percent. 

Eric Feng (Host):

So maybe that's how we see social media as complimentary rather than replacement. 

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yup.

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay, so let's move on to our second question and that is if let's say we secure an interview, a media interview, what do you think are some of the steps that we need to bear in mind as we prepare for that media interview?

Joel Lim (Guest):

Here's a little trick from the media industry that I think they'll kill me for exposing. So every media person, if they're not crunching for time, they would rather do interviews via in person or on call, whereby the quotes that someone gives will be a lot more organic. So in that sense, they would usually turn down email interviews. But an email interview for a PR person is the absolute dream because you get absolute control over what gets sent over. And with written work, you can really, make sure that the choice of words are everything that you want. Sometimes you would know as well, everyone prepares a speech and everything, but sometimes when you go out there and it's free flow, you would use different phrases or say things a bit differently. And sometimes that can lead to headache for a PR person, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

That's true.

Joel Lim (Guest):

So a PR person's dream come true would be to do an email interview. At least in my perspective, that's always the case, whereby as a PR person representing, let's say, a public figure, I can also vet through what they say for us. But the downside to that is that the media people don't like it. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah, because it's not organic, right?

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah. So what I do, and I feel like there might be different, like Joel, shut up, but what I do is that I will request for email interviews, I will get the quotes from them, and I will fine tune a little bit, double check with them if the quotes are cool to go. Sorry, let me just redo this part.

Eric Feng (Host):

Yes.

Joel Lim (Guest):

What I'll do is that I will request for email interviews, I will speak with the client on how certain things should be phrased first, get their answers, and then once they are vetted, I will send it over to the press. How I tried to do it is that I will make sure to brief the client to say things in ways that are conversational so that it sounds organic. Ultimately, when the piece gets out, there's still going to be a written piece. So I will tell them, "Okay, make sure that the things you say are succinct and type it like how you would say it." In that sense, the media won't be too hot up about the fact that it-

Eric Feng (Host):

[crosstalk 00:33:23], this is written by you. 

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah, correct, correct. But of course, it is the mercy of the media. Some of them are really like, "No, we want it on call," so in that sense, then sure, absolutely. You cannot say no. I will still take it, absolutely. It's just that the risk is a little bit higher and there's a lot more prep work to be done.

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it. So as best as possible to try to do an email interview.

Joel Lim (Guest):

That's what I say. But I will tell you that when people [inaudible 00:33:54] hear this, they will be like, "No." They will turn this down. But at the end of the day, my job as a PR person is to make sure that everything's safe and everything is delivered in the way I want it to be. So to me, personally, an email works best. But to other PR people, maybe they don't find this the best way. But this is my personal opinion.

Eric Feng (Host):

So assuming that, unfortunately, we can't get an email interview and we have to do a phone call or, worst, we have to do a video interview like this, how do we make sure that you do well in the interview?

Joel Lim (Guest):

Always practice. Again, you have to get into the headspace of the media. What kind of questions will they ask you? I will personally split it into level one, level two, level three questions.

Eric Feng (Host):

Tell me, what are those?

Joel Lim (Guest):

Level one, I would say, would be the basics. If you want to understand what is the context of what's happening, the context setting questions. What is the product you're launching? Why are you launching it? Things like that. That's level one. Level two, will be going into the details of it, the backstory. For example, I'm launching sugar-free peanuts or homegrown peanuts or whatever. The backstory, perhaps, will be that I got an allergic reaction to factory-made peanuts one day and I thought why not just create it at home. So that's level two, whereby I go a little bit into the deeper side of things.

And then level three is where I would say you will go for the harder hitting questions. It's like are you here to distract the peanut industry, for example? Whereby sometimes this will be questions that you will rather not answer, but they will ask because they want much as info as possible and that's where you would want to also prepare for difficult questions. When the time comes for the interview, maybe they will just go for level one all the way or they will go for level two all the way. But if they go into level three, then at least you're prepared and at least you know what is the worst case scenario and at least you have something prepared to tackle those questions so you don't get caught off guard. 

So I would say preparation is the best and if you know that it's going to be a verbal interview or it's going to be a video interview, have a practice session. Have a colleague be play the role of an interview and then you verbalize what you want to say. That's what I do in media training as well. if I'm sending a public figure to speak to the media, I sit them down for half an hour and they're like, "Joel, I'm so busy. Why are you wasting my time?" I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no, this is literally what I'm going to do." So I'll run through the interview with them. Certain answers they say, I'm like, "No, no, no, don't say that. Say this."

Eric Feng (Host):

Tell me more about that. How would you define a good answer or a bad answer? 

Joel Lim (Guest):

Again, short quotes. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Soundbites.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Soundbites. If you're going to be on TV, you would know that there's limited ad time and they're going to air a 40-minute quote, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

Yes.

Joel Lim (Guest):

So they're going to air maybe a 10-second, 20-second. But you will already know how quotes are going to be edited when you watch news. The newscaster will say something, they will have maybe a 10, 20-second soundbite from a person and then it will be narrated. So you need to give them several options for soundbites, so make sure that when you phrase certain things it will be like that. Same thing for newspaper article whereby, at most, they'll give you maybe one paragraph of quotes, unless you are right writing for the paper. If not, if you're just getting interviewed for a soundbite, then you know that's what they want. Or if let's say you are doing a feature interview whereby they dedicate maybe two pages to, you would know that every answer that they do, they'll probably publish one to two paragraphs, so your answer cannot be longer than that.

Eric Feng (Host):

Very useful. Is there a structure that you recommend your clients to use when they answer questions?

Joel Lim (Guest):

I would just say inverted pyramid. Get all the important facts out first and then trickle down to the smaller details.

Eric Feng (Host):

Very nice. So don't bury the lead.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah, correct. 

Eric Feng (Host):

So give the most important point first and then after that... So that means you want to assume that if I got three things I want to say, I have to decide what's the most important thing. I'll make sure I get that out of the way first so that, hopefully, the media will feature that.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah.

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay. Very nice now. So let's tackle difficult questions. Level three, as you said. So to recap, level one are the what questions. So would you say it's content questions? Then level two is context, which is why you do it. And then level three is the conflict or controversy questions. 

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah.

Eric Feng (Host):

So if I would get a difficult question, is there a method on how to answer those questions?

Joel Lim (Guest):

I think it's important to think about what they're asking first, so you can always stall time. You can always ask for a minute to gather your thoughts. Always remember that you cannot let a question get the best out of you. I always tell the people I'm representing that you never want to be the story, unless, of course, you are the personality. Even if you're an artist, your point is to promote the song. You don't want them to talk about your personal life or the way you conduct yourself on set, unless it's for a good thing. So you almost always watch what you say. Difficult questions, they will come sooner or later.

One is to always be prepared so that when you get presented a question like that, stall for time, either you repeat the question like, "Oh, that's a great question," do some do some time to think about what you want to see. This is where the preparation will come in whereby, okay, I've been through this, I know what you're asking. This is what is going to come out. If let's say you didn't prepare, I would say to give a safe an answer as possible whereby you can also deflect. If let's say you really can't answer you can always say like, "I'm going to have to get back to you on that. I don't think I'm ready to answer the question." Oh my god, my media friends are going to kill me, but again, sometimes they will ask you questions and if you don't want to answer them, you can give them non-usable answers.

Eric Feng (Host):

What's non-usable?

Joel Lim (Guest):

Like, I'm sorry, I don't think I'm ready to answer that question. Unless, of course, your non-answer is telling. For example, did you cheat on your wife and your answer is, "I don't think I'm ready to answer that," obviously, it says a lot. Obviously, you have to understand the situation of how it is. And that's really why preparation is so important.

By the way, I missed this out this as well. I feel like this whole session is just punching bag for them. This whole episode is going to be a punching bag for me with my media friends. But here's a tip. Let's say if you're a public figure, and you're going into an interview, and let's say, specifically, the media has agreed that I'm here to promote my peanuts. But just six months ago, I went through a divorce with a high-profile influencer and I don't want the press to talk about it. What I can do is that in the pitch process or if they reach out and everything, I can just say, "I would like that topic to be out of bounds." Some media will be offended by that, because they're like, "You cannot dictate what we want." But if you do it nicely enough or courteous enough and you explain that this is the piece, it might even cost you, actually, the interview. Let's say they want the sensationalism of that. And sometimes they'll be like, "Oh, yeah, we won't ask," but-

Eric Feng (Host):

By the way or after [crosstalk 00:42:18].

Joel Lim (Guest):

Correct. Correct. So what you can do is really just lay out the ground rules. At the end of the day, it's a collaborative effort, I would say. That's why having a PR person is good because they know how to navigate situations this.

Eric Feng (Host):

That's very true. I remember, I was being taught before in school as well that if you're being asked to question, you can use the zoom in and zoom out method. So for example, someone cornered you and say, "Hey, I don't understand why Joel is getting more paid than me. I'm working as hard as Joel." So the fire is in that situation about your pay. So you don't zoom in, you zoom out. So you try to have a bird's eye view. So you don't answer that question. You say, "First of all, you need to understand this is our company's way of dealing with pay." So you don't really deal with a personal issue, but you deal something more macro. 

But sometimes the fire may be a bit macro like let's say they say, "It seems like your trains are always late," then it's a very macro statement. If someone gives you a macro statement that's putting you on fire, then you zoom now into the micro and you say that, "This is something that we have been doing to make sure that our trains are on time." And so that avoid you from answering that question yet put you in good light. What do you think about the technique? Do you think that's still usable?

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah. I mean, it's about identity. When someone is asking you difficult questions, you need to be able to give them something to chew on. You cannot shut that person down entirely. It's like a game where if they ask you a difficult question, and you react a certain way, and we've seen how people react to difficult questions badly in public before, and that turns into a whole new other thing, and that just spirals out of control. So it's so important to give them something that they can chew on. Perhaps your answer may not be what they want, but at least they have something to use.

Eric Feng (Host):

Which points back to what you just said, which is if you have already prepared very well for the interview and you're really decided three to five key messages that you want to get across, you just keep them in your mind. Regardless of whatever question they ask, you try to find your way to that three to five points. 

Joel Lim (Guest):

Hundred percent, yeah.

Eric Feng (Host):

Right, so this what you mentioned. And most importantly, you said it in one of your Instagram Story, which is no matter how difficult the question is, you cannot be seen to be ruffled. It means no matter how, you cannot show your anger because it reveals weakness, right?

Joel Lim (Guest):

Correct. And you have to understand that the way new media works is that they will only focus on your answer. At the end of the day, all the news media, they have to get the point across in a few seconds on social media, right? So if there's a reply that is a bit sensational, they're just going to cut out your answer. They won't have the context. 

Most of the time, they won't show the reporter's face as well, unless, of course, they are someone like Sumiko, whereby she has lunch with, and she's literally part of the concept. Most of the time, the journalist is unseen and the only thing that's seen is the reply or the answer of the person. So if you're going into something like a press conference, let's say, and you know they're going to cut out on your answer, then all the more, you cannot react a certain way you. You have to remember that you're not just there to be yourself, you're also representing, let's say, a brand or your product or your service. It is beyond just see us as individual.

Eric Feng (Host):

Good point. Now, that very nicely brings us back to the last piece, which is how do you deal with bad press? So let's say sometimes we are not one that has welcomed the publicity. We didn't hire a PR agency to get us on the media. But unfortunately, maybe we went through a lawsuit and then someone found out about it or some information that we put out got leaked out and, therefore, it became an assassination of our reputation. What do we do? Can we talk our way out of it?

Joel Lim (Guest):

Sure. So I would say that in situations like this that you must always look at it from a very... There's no textbook answer, really. You really have to look at the situation and what is it that is getting you bad press or bad reactions online. One of the things I would always say is to, again, just be prepared. What is the worst thing that can come out about you today? Everyone has skeletons in their closet. I cheated in things here in primary school. If that comes out-

Eric Feng (Host):

Spelling Bee.

Joel Lim (Guest):

If that comes out, what will happen? If let's say I've built my brand entirely on honesty, that's going to get me canceled. So if that comes out, what can I say? Have I done things that will maybe soften the blow of that piece coming out? So these are questions that I always ask clients. Fun fact, not really that fun, actually, it was quite horrific to work on those projects, but I have worked with clients who have been in crisis online before and my questions have always been, "Tell me your side of the story." Online, you are right now a villain. You're seen in a very bad light. But is there something that you can tell me that is factual that you can perhaps soften the blow of this situation. And then I can come in there to perhaps give advice on what they can do or say and things like that. 

So it's really just considering the situation. People get canceled or people get backlash online for all sorts of things today. The severity differs. One example can be perhaps an insensitive tweet. One example can be perhaps allegations of sexual misconduct. And then another one can be perhaps like doing... I don't know.

Eric Feng (Host):

Misconduct, we get that. Someone tries to sue you or-

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah, so it's the severity of the thing. So different situations have different ways you can respond. In some cases, accountabilities, the desired response, clarity, transparency. In some cases, it's commitment to do better. There's all these different things. So what I would say is do what makes sense to you and again, I would say, to put yourself in the other person's shoes. Let's say if you're upset about something. If you're upset at someone for a certain issue, what can that someone do that will make you feel a little bit better about the situation?

Eric Feng (Host):

That is such a very good tip. That means to say that, in future, whether I offended the public or a certain community, rather than being defensive, which is generally how we respond, we put ourselves in their shoe and ask ourselves, "Why is that guy upset? What's the hidden objective of that person?" So some people are angry with you because they want justice. Some people are angry because you reminded them of a certain thing that's missing in the society. I like that. That is a very useful tip because, like you said, there's no textbook answer, right?

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah. 

Eric Feng (Host):

But if we put ourselves in the shoe of the audience, then we will know what they need and then we can communicate better.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah. And I think the important thing to note is also that with situations like this, you have to be open and you have to be sincere in how do you respond. If people are upset with you, let's say if your friend is upset with you, you don't go back with defensive or sarcastic tones and everything. If your intention is to want to have your friend be cool with you again, you have to be able to listen and understand perhaps where you might have done things a little bit wrong or might have rubbed them the wrong way. Perhaps they may not be entirely correct as well. They may not have the full picture. 

But when emotions are in play, how you navigate a relationship like that is so important. So we have applied that same concept as to online, whereby you have so many people who are upset with you. It's not just that they laugh it off or whatever. They're actually angry. So if they're upset about something, you need to be able to calm them down first. Some of the people that I work with, they perhaps don't find it correct. Even though you feel in the right, you have to also appease the situation. But for me, it's like just treat it as how you would with your friends, how you would with interpersonal relationships. At the end of the day, the people behind the accounts are people, so how you handle a situation like this in real life, I'll do it in a very human way and there's a lot of empathy involved in that. 

And then perhaps, when you lower down your guard, and you lower down your spears and forks, and everything, they too will be able to understand where you're coming from. And if they don't show, you've tried. You've tried and that's the best that you can do. But if they do, then hey, at least you've managed to turn a situation that's bad into a better one.

Eric Feng (Host):

So would you say that to deescalate the situation and to make people calm down, just apologize? 

Joel Lim (Guest):

No, I wouldn't say that. If you understand where you went wrong, then that's where you must apologize.

Eric Feng (Host):

So apologize for the things that you did wrong.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Correct. But an apology shouldn't be the go-to solution. It just doesn't mean that someone cancels me or someone-

Eric Feng (Host):

You'll say sorry.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah, then that becomes insincere, right? 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah.

Joel Lim (Guest):

You have to do the work to understand where things went wrong and what can be done better. But I think rather than apology being the solution, I would say the solution is to listen and to then follow up on that.

Eric Feng (Host):

So put yourself in their shoe, empathy, listen to why are people upset with you, then address it right upfront, the issue that causes people to be upset. 

Joel Lim (Guest):

Correct.

Eric Feng (Host):

And generally, the angle is usually, there's a certain... You probably need to show effort in trying to make changes to improve the situation.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Sure. People have different belief systems, so sometimes you say a certain opinion that people just do not agree with and this is something that you'll never change on, then how do you navigate situations like that? It's really just making sure that you acknowledge how certain things can be phrased better. There are people with differing opinions that don't get people shouting at them every day. So there must have been something that you said or did that rub people a certain way. So identifying that and understanding where you can do better in perspective. 

Most of the time, I don't think the people that hate on you will suddenly turn around and become your number one fan. They probably won't be. But the good thing will be that at least they don't hit you. They don't continue attacking you. So I think that there is value in doing so.

Eric Feng (Host):

This is so useful because we don't get that a lot or we don't learn that in school, right?

Joel Lim (Guest):

Of course not.

Eric Feng (Host):

So now, I know. Step number one is drop your defense because the minute you still hold your weapons, people are going to continue holding their weapons. And then number two, walk on their shoe, empathy, understand why they're upset, and then show them sincerely that you're going to make some changes, knowing that you still might not change their opinion, but you've done whatever you could do because not everybody is irrational. There are still rational people. 

Joel Lim (Guest):

Absolutely.

Eric Feng (Host):

I've seen some influences or some personalities, they got really bad rep and then they disappear for a while and then they came back stronger. Is there a way to do that? A lot of us, we might thrive on public opinion, right? 

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah.

Eric Feng (Host):

I mean, it's like a wave. They bring you up, but it can also bring you down. So what do you say to somebody who probably receive a lot of bad rep and you're very depressed right now? What could that person do? He has already done all the apology work and everything, but it has already a negative impact on his business or his reputation.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Well, it depends on what they receive backlash for right. So if, let's say, like-

Eric Feng (Host):

Society [crosstalk 00:55:36].

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah, like sexual misconduct with younger boys, maybe. I don't think that's something that you can come back from, especially, if, let's say investigations show that you were guilty. I think in most cases again, the people who were not your friends will probably not turn around and suddenly become friends again. If you want to come back, I mean, honestly, to be honest, it really depends on what the backlash was for. We have had instances whereby people have [inaudible 00:56:12] above bad press and came back even stronger. Ariana Grande, she had a whole donut scandal whereby she licked the donut in a donut store and whatever, the people were upset with her. But look at her today, she's still one of the biggest-

Eric Feng (Host):

How [inaudible 00:56:28]?

Joel Lim (Guest):

I think a sincere apology was what was that and also, the severity of that isn't as bad as let's say, for example, someone who had a racist rant online, things like that. So that's that. Understanding where you went wrong. And if let's say you were to come back, you probably would have to be a lot more aware of how you come back. Your public image will need to change a little bit as well, maybe you're a bit more mature. The things you say are no longer as boisterous.

Eric Feng (Host):

That's so true because you reminded me of a singer in Malaysia who, I think, a couple months ago got a major epic trouble because of a song he wrote, which was actually a skin whitening cream. And then he created a song, which is brownface, and he got very, very bad rep. But what happened was that, of course, number one, he apologized, but it's not just an apology for the apology. He actually said, "I spent time reading all your comments to understand what really got you upset and that you are right, that I was a little bit insensitive. I was trying to be creative, but I was insensitive." And he rewrote the song. He rewrote the entire song and reproduced the whole song and it became very popular.

Joel Lim (Guest):

If let's say people can see that he's being genuine and he's sincere, at the end of the day, I feel like, I mean, at least for me, if I look at someone... we all make mistakes. Just sometimes, some of us do it on a public platform. So of course, that will be a dent that will be on in your career for life. But at the end of the day, if you show sincerity in wanting to improve and if the crime or the issue isn't that severe, whereby it is... again, if it's sexual misconduct, I think-

Eric Feng (Host):

It's something that society [crosstalk 00:58:22].

Joel Lim (Guest):

But if it's something that-

Eric Feng (Host):

A mistake like a business mistake, generally.

Joel Lim (Guest):

And if you can actually use your platform, let's say you're a public figure and you can use your platform to now champion for awareness, then why not? I think that's one way that you can turn a bad situation into a better one. I wouldn't even say a good one. I would say a better one. So if you want to continue to be in the industry, you have to accept that there will be people who will always bring it up forever. 10 years later down the road, oh yeah, this is the brownface guy, and you have to accept that. That's the way social media works. But if over the 10 years, you can continuously do the groundwork, continuously understand that to the public, you are this person that did something, but you can use your platform to then do good, then why not?

Eric Feng (Host):

So I do one bad, but if you can do five or six good stuff, it might, actually, over time help you to improve public sentiments.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yes, it just might. And, again, it may not bring you to the levels of popularity before and there will always be people against you, but at least you can still continue to do what you like doing.

Eric Feng (Host):

Someone once said that it's like a normal curve. The public sentiment is like normal curve. No matter what you do, 10% of the people will always hate you for what you do, 10% of the people will always support you for whatever you do. Your job is actually the convince the 80% that's sitting on the fence. If we see it that way, then maybe we won't feel so upset or depressed or so worried about putting ourselves out there on social media.

Joel Lim (Guest):

That's something I'm actually working on myself. Obviously, just a year ago, I was just a typical Instagram user whereas now, I'm a bit more on the public front. And I've realized that at first, I was very affected. You said 10% when I'm talking about politics, it's got to be a sensitive thing and obviously, with shows, I have a question, we talk about controversial topics or hot button issues, no matter what we say, there will be people who will be against us. And obviously, at the time when I first started out, and again, you don't learn this in school, but when you have certain comments come in or certain them feedback come in, you take it to heart and you're just like, "Damn, what can I do better?"

But then again, I ask myself, "Do I not certain people in the public space for no reason?" And the answer is yes. Do I disagree with certain public figures when they give opinions on certain things? Hundred percent. I used to do that. I used to be the one saying, "This was so... " If we can just understand that fact that people will have different opinions and whatnot, then perhaps we can navigate this a little bit better.

Eric Feng (Host):

And don't take it personally. 

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah. Of course, the dream world will be for the world to be kinder and for people to navigate this space with a bit more kindness, but it's going to take a while. We see a progress whereby the kinds of conversations surrounding the way we treat public figures has changed in the last decade. The way we've talked about Amanda Bynes, Britney Spears, Lindsay Lohan versus the way we talked about public figures today has changed, whereby a lot of people now understand the mental health aspect of things. I'm going entirely off-point. 

Eric Feng (Host):

I think people are getting kinder or at least because of all these issues, right? People are starting to realize that even if they're not influencer, they are just public, but their opinions do matter and their wisdom carry weight. 

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah, a hundred percent. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Why is it that well-known celebrities actually kill themselves? Because they cannot get over that one or two negative remark versus the 200 or 2,000 positive remarks. 

Joel Lim (Guest):

If I was to bring him back to the PR perspective, then to understand that in the social media space, not everything that you put out there is going to be received well, so in terms of understanding the way you position or the PR side of things, it's like if majority are positive, then at least you know that's positive. But then just take note of what the negative things are so that you can work on that as well. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Very nice. So wish for the best, but manage the downside.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Oh, yeah, absolutely. 

Eric Feng (Host):

I love that. And we're going to wrap up with... I've got a few wrapping up questions, but I'm going to pick one that I feel would maybe help a lot of us, which is the people listening to us, I would say they love upgrading themselves, they love leveling up. So I'm wondering, is there a book or a video that they could read or watch to help them improve their PR skills? What would you recommend?

Joel Lim (Guest):

Sure. So I wouldn't say that there's books that I would recommend. PR is just that. If you Google it or if you find a PR books in the library, most of them would say similar things. It's like, here's what you can do. But it's the way you can do it well that I think would make a difference. So rather than recommending books, I would say go for people. Follow people or watch certain people on how they put themselves out there, and how they get coverage, and things that. Depending on the space they're in, so someone Chrissy Teigen is always getting headlines for her tweets. Why is that? Everyone tweets, why is it only Chrissy that's getting the headlines? You look at people AOC as a politician.

Eric Feng (Host):

Or Elon Musk, a businessman.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Absolutely. All these different people, what is it about them that they say or they do that continuously get in the headline? Look at the brands that are out there. For example, let's say like Singapore Tourism Board. Whoever does their videos have always consistently gotten good feedback. How do they do that?

Eric Feng (Host):

One of my friend is actually at DBS.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah?

Eric Feng (Host):

Getting Nathan Hartono to do some of the short films. Will we watch ads for four minutes? We watch it for the whole entire show.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yes. Milo. I think Milo is a local brand that does advertising very well. So what is it about all these different brands, products, whatever that consistently do well with PR? And then using the books, using the blocks, walk it backwards. You know there's a method now to the madness. So if you can basically be the student in class in MTU, seeing the final product and understanding okay, what can I do and reverse engineer that process, then I think it will be useful to you. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Fantastic. This is awesome. This is actually a very powerful tip and it's a great way to end today’s interview with Joel. Joel, what's your future plans?

Joel Lim (Guest):

I think I'm at a transitionary period. So I am actually leaving my full-time job and I'm trying to do this content creation thing full-time and also to look at creating more infotainment content. I really enjoy what I do with I Have a Question, all the different Prude series. So I want to continue doing that and seeing where else I can do that. I'm in my late 20s, so I'm giving myself two years to try and see what I can do with this. If it doesn't work out, I can always just go back to a full-time nine to five job. But if it does, then hey, at least, I managed to do some of that. So I'm excited for that. So yeah, hopefully, it works out in two years' time.

Eric Feng (Host):

I think it will. Let me just help the listeners ask, if we were to approach you and say, "Hey, Joel, do you do one-to-one consults to help us with our PR," would you say that's something that you might consider?

Joel Lim (Guest):

It depends on a project, I would say.

Eric Feng (Host):

Individuals. Usually, the people listening to us are entrepreneurs.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yes, on a case-by-case basis. So it really depends on what they want. Again, I'm very new to this industry and I'll admit that. I will look at specifically what they want out of it, specifically, what is the product, what is the service, what are they trying to push out? And then I'll see whether or not it's within my expertise. I'm not the kind of person that will just say yes to jobs. It hurts, I just turned down a few projects because I just don't think I'm suitable to do them. But you if let's say there's synergy in what you want to do and what I can provide, then absolutely.

Eric Feng (Host):

Why not? Well, I will say, always just ask. You never know. So, thank you so much, Joel. I think this is such a productive conversation. You actually got me thinking about things that I wasn't even aware about. And I think whoever wants to put himself out there, they should really listen to this interview to see how to not just win their own audience, but to win the public sentiment. I think that's very powerful.

Joel Lim (Guest):

Yeah, I hope to see maybe one day someone listening in can say that, "Oh, I learned the tips from the podcast," and it'll be pretty cool in time to come.

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it. So those of you listening or watching us, please put the things that you have learned from Joel into practice and then when you get some good results, please let us know so that we can celebrate for you. All right, Joel, thank you so much. 

Joel Lim (Guest):

Thanks for having me. This is fun.

Eric Feng (Host):

This is fun. So there are many things I've learned from Joel's interview, but let me summarize two things that I thought was a big takeaway for me. I think number one is curiosity. You need to be curious about that media platform you want to be featured on. What kind of news do they feature? What kind of content seems to do very well with them? Even the part about being good in PR, it's about being curious about business entrepreneurs or personalities. Ask yourself questions like, why is that guy getting all the positive publicity? Why is this guy able to turn around a negative situation and get a good comeback? So by us being curious, we're actually going to learn a lot more about public relations that we can learn in a book or a video. I thought that was my biggest takeaway. That actually PR is everywhere, we just got to start paying attention. So that's one takeaway.

The second takeaway that I felt I got it very deep into my soul is that, ultimately, you can't win everyone, so stop trying to win everybody's opinion. Even Mother Teresa have her haters, so you don't have to win everyone. The key thing is to go where you are celebrated and find your tribe by putting yourself out there. 

So I hope you enjoyed today's episode of the podcast. And if you enjoyed this, you'd be happy to know that we post this video, this podcast interview once a week on YouTube, so remember to subscribe, hit the button, and I'll see you in the next podcast.