14. How to avoid getting cancelled on social media – Wei Li Fong

In this episode of #HighlySoughtAfter, I had a chat with Fong Weili, a well-known lawyer here in Singapore. Wei Li represents and advises influencers, public figures and companies on online issues like privacy, defamation and how they can avoid getting into trouble on social media. He’s also the managing director at Forward Legal and an adjunct faculty at Singapore Management University’s School of Law.

In this episode, he’s going to address the top three social media related issues that you may get you in legal trouble: copyrights infringement, defamation and cancel culture. 
 
If you ever worry that you are breaking some law every time you post content on social media, you’ll love this episode as Weili highlights the top three social media related issues that may get you in legal trouble, as well as the legal mistakes you might be making every day on social media.

Hint: If you’re a content creator, entrepreneur or content creator building your personal brand on social media, listen in at 19:29 where Weili delves into copyright infringement, what constitutes it, and practical steps of how you can avoid getting into legal trouble on social media.

Also listen out for Wei Li’s answers to the following questions:

• I’m curious, have you always thought about studying Law? Has that always been your ambition? - 1:04
• How did you end up specialising in social media and internet law? – 3:22
• What was one of the most interesting cases you’ve worked on? – 4:26
• If I, or someone in a compromised position receives a video of themselves (i.e., that person was a victim of revenge porn) and then I watch that video, is it illegal? – 17:43
• If I draw out a Disney character, am I able to use it commercially, or for personal usage only? – 19:29
• Let’s say I say something in a video or a speech (i.e., a quotable quote) and then someone says it without quoting or referencing me, is that copyright infringement? – 21:08
• What about trademarking a quote? – 23:03
• Can we post copyrighted music from a movie, or say Spotify, to our social media? – 23:28
• If we credit the source of the content, will that save us from legal issues? – 25:15
• If I create a 2–3-minute video, and someone clipped a portion of my video and re-posted it without crediting me. Is that considered legal? – 26:28
• I heard of a legal case involving Katy Perry, where she took a photo of her on Instagram, reposted it and got sued. Why? – 31:54
• Why do you have this reputation as one of the top lawyers for defamation in Singapore? – 38:02
• Is it true if I make a statement (i.e., in my opinion), does it help cushion, and perhaps even prevent me from getting into a defamation suit? – 45:00
• How can we prevent cancel culture? – 48:52
• Many famous people who have recently gotten into trouble for mistakes they made when they weren’t famous. What can we do? – 52:08
• What about critic videos, commentary, and satire done by YouTubers to other people? – 53:13

If you want to keep in touch with Wei Li, you can reach him on Instagram @willythewombatwizard. You can also check out his law firm, and contact details on his website: https://www.forwardlegal.sg/fong-wei-li.

Read these books to become highly sought after in your own industry -> www.pickericsbrain.com

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Transcript

Eric Feng (Host):

In this episode of #HighlySoughtAfter, I had a chat with Fong Wei Li, a well-known lawyer here in Singapore, to address the top three social-media-related issues that may get you in legal trouble: copyright infringement, defamation, and cancel culture. Wei Li represents and advises influencers, public figures, and companies on online issues like privacy, defamation, and how they can avoid getting into trouble on social media. He's also an adjunct faculty at Singapore Management University's School of Law. So, with all that said, ladies and gentlemen, Fong Wei Li. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Hello, Eric, hi. Hey, thanks for having me.

Eric Feng (Host):

Thank you for coming here.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Thanks for the orange sofa, which I think you know is my favorite color. 

Eric Feng (Host):

This is your favorite color?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Yeah, and it matches my socks, you see, so I'm very happy. 

Eric Feng (Host):

So, what if you're watching us on YouTube, you'll see is a set-up, okay? So, Wei Li, I've known you for a few years, but I've never asked you this question, so I want to take the liberty of asking you this question.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Is it a sensitive question? 

Eric Feng (Host):

Ah, well, every question is sensitive. I'm very curious, have you always thought about studying law? Has that always been your ambition?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Ambition is a very lofty word. From a B, no. Law was not my first pursuit, actually. When I went to university first, what I studied was actually psychology, and media and commerce. So I actually got my interest in law peaked when I was working in my first job. I came across a lot of rather complex legal issues. I found it interesting, so I decided, if not now, then when? Sign up for a law degree, and the rest was history, right. I've spent maybe the last seven to eight years practicing law, and I've never looked back. It helps that I kind of enjoy what I'm doing, so here I am.

Eric Feng (Host):

What is it about law that you enjoy?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Wow. Definitely not the money, contrary to what people think. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Lovely.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

We make a comfortable living, but we are not like exorbitantly rich.

Eric Feng (Host):

PC answer.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Of course, of course. It won't be blackmailing me. What is it about law that I like? 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah, I'm very curious.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Okay, so my good friends will say that I am a very argumentative person. So I think it kind of fits in with my nature, to some extent, especially the kind of work that I do, which is litigation, going to court, handling disputes. I am the kind of person who enjoys getting a kick out of finding a good argument. Sorry I cannot snap my fingers. Finding a good argument, finding a good point, I'm the kind of person who also gets a kick out of winning. 

Eric Feng (Host):

These are things that a client would love to hear about a lawyer, if you think about it. If you hire a lawyer and the lawyer tells you, "I'm not too sure I can help you with this case," it doesn't give you confidence.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

I mean, I like to win, but I will never, or no decent lawyer will tell a client and confirm a win, because in litigation there is no certainty. So many factors and moving parts come into play, but I'm going back to your earlier question. I like what I do, which makes it less of a chore, which makes waking up in the morning less of a pain. These are the things that keep me going.

Eric Feng (Host):

So I'm curious. Now we know why you got into law, but how do you end up specializing in social media and Internet law?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Okay, I don't think I found that area of work. I think the converse is more accurate, the area of work found me. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Whoa.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

So, my first so to speak degree was in psychology, media, and commerce, right. So, when I first started venturing out into the professional world, I had quite a number of contacts working within the media industry. So I think these were also the contacts who started sending me work in the initial stages of my career, and I think it kind of snowballed from there. I started doing a lot of work for advertising companies, for media agencies, for news outlets, and after some time, word got around, the referrals started picking up, and I'm here where I am today.

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it. So by virtue that you're already in that world, right?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

It's a very organic growth process.

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it. Now, what was one of the most interesting cases, if you can share with us?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Interesting cases? 

Eric Feng (Host):

I want to set a context here, because sometimes we watch a lot of TV shows and Netflix, right. So we have this false impression of what a lawyer does.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Nothing like that.

Eric Feng (Host):

Nothing as cool as that?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Nothing...I mean, it depends on how good-looking your lawyer is, right? If your lawyer is very good-looking, then you'll be very cool, right. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Because I'm a big fan of Suits, by the way. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

But that aside, 80% of what goes on in these legal dramas is not very accurate.

Eric Feng (Host):

Oh.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

I'm sorry to disappoint you. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Disappoint the public.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

And the world at large, yeah. But these legal dramas are also important, because if you don't have them, then you won't attract people to become lawyers, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

Exactly. That's very true. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

So, only when they start working as a real lawyer, they get to the culture shock on the show, they realize all that is like fiction. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Later, I'm going to make a mental note to ask Wei Li what are some of the things that shocked you. Put that aside for a moment. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Later.

Eric Feng (Host):

Tell us the most interesting case so far in your career.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

I would say maybe revenge porn?

Eric Feng (Host):

Whoa. Two very interesting words.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Revenge porn.

Eric Feng (Host):

What's revenge porn?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Revenge porn is when you, let's say get into a relationship with somebody. During the course of the relationship you take certain compromising photos of each other, or of the both of you together doing certain things that should be kept private. Then, the relationship goes south, you break up, and then you use the photos to blackmail the other person or to threaten the other person. That's revenge porn.

Eric Feng (Host):

I see. So interesting. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

It is interesting, because I've dealt with quite a bit of these kinds of matters, in the initial stages of my career. I mean, I still do, my team still does that now, not so much myself personally, but it's interesting because it offers you a glimpse into human nature and how things can change. Sorry, I'm attempting to snap my fingers again when I totally cannot do it.

Eric Feng (Host):

I also cannot.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

It offers you a glimpse into human nature, and it's kind of startling that one day you can be lovers and the next day you can, things can change. Something's wrong, and then you can take something that is most intimate to a person, i.e. photos, videos, they are private, right, and then threaten to--

Eric Feng (Host):

Use them against them.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Yeah, use it against them. It's also an interesting learning point. The learning point being, even if you're in a relationship of flaming passion, certain things, don't do. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

I mean, don't allow people to take photos of you in compromising spaces. Yeah, so I think interesting. 

Eric Feng (Host):

So how did it end up? Who sued who?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Usually what happens is that there will be a threat, oh, I have these photos of you. If you don't get back with me, if you don't meet me, or you don't pick up my call, I'm going to put them on the Internet. So it's usually the person who is being threatened who will consider taking legal action against the person who has these photos. 

Eric Feng (Host):

And does that person have a case?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely.

Eric Feng (Host):

So even if the person just threatened to post it I already have a case?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Even a threat carries with it so to speak legal risk or legal consequences.

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it. But what if that person actually posted those videos and pictures? Then, he or she is going to get it, right, but I also suffer a consequence because my videos are out?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Yeah, you will. You will. No doubt about that. What goes on the Internet stays on the Internet. It's not going to disappear. It can get buried within layers of Google search pages...

Eric Feng (Host):

It's probably on the 26th page of the Google.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

But it doesn't change the fact that it's there and just because you successfully removed something doesn't mean that nobody has actually saved it and nobody's going to recirculate it down the road. So that's the set reality of the world that we live in.

Eric Feng (Host):

So, question. If I receive that video of someone in a compromised position, that person was a victim of revenge porn, let's just say. And then I watched that video, is it illegal?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Technically it is. 

Eric Feng (Host):

So if I watch it, it's illegal. If I share it, if my friend's in the WhatsApp group-

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Illegal. Because it is technically a criminal offense to be in possession of obscene films, obscene materials. It's not a provision that they actively prosecute people on, because, well, most people have certain things on their computers. But if you happen to be caught...I mean, look. The reality of it is that if you threaten somebody with the prospect of releasing these kinds of photos, that person makes a police report against you, the police comes to you, looks at your computer and discovers that you have that video, plus 20 others, 200 others, then the police are going to say, well, while I'm already on this matter, I'm going to slap you with this extra charge of possessing obscene films.

Eric Feng (Host):

That's a very, very helpful point. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Yeah, but I'm not going to scare everybody by insinuating that they go around actively prosecuting. 

Eric Feng (Host):

But going back to what you just said. I think my takeaway form you is that in today's world where all of us are media companies because of our mobile phones, we've got to be very careful about the videos that we take. We have to assume that every video that we take might one day leak out, and therefore we have to ask ourselves, if I'm going to take that video, and if it leaked out, would I be okay about it? If not, don't even take that video.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Yeah. So, I would say sometimes prevention is a lot better than cure.

Eric Feng (Host):

I love that. So, in today's interview, I have zoned in to three of the biggest social-media-related issues that all content creators and entrepreneurs will face when we're active on social media. One is copyright infringement, two is defamation, and three, something very new, which is cancel culture. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Okay. 

Eric Feng (Host):

So, let's go straight into copyright infringement, which is the most popular topic. So, if I draw out a Disney character, or any other characters for that matter, am I able to use it commercially or for personal usage only?

Fong Wei Li (Guest): (IG Story Hook)

Technically, no. Because as you've rightly pointed out, this mechanism called copyright exists. Copyright is a form of legal protection that covers creative works. So if I take a photograph for example, I own the copyright to that photograph. If I write a poem, I own the copyright to that poem. If I compose a tune or a song, I own the copyright to that song, right? And contrary to what a lot of people think, you don't need to register that copyright for that copyright to be effective. The moment you create something, for example, I have a canvas, I have paint, I paint a photo. I'm sorry, not a photo. I paint-

Eric Feng (Host):

A picture.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Let's say a landscape. Immediately upon creation of that work, the copyright latches onto that work. If somebody takes an image of this painting and then tries to use it for his or her own commercial gain, I can say, hey, you're infringing upon my copyright. I then have a legal case against you.

Eric Feng (Host):

So if let's say I say something in a video or a speech, a quotable quote. And then someone used it without saying that it came from me. Would that be already a copyright infringement?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

I, we've got to be a bit technical about things. Let's split hairs here, right. What you say isn't covered by copyright. But the video is. Because the video is a work of, I wouldn't say art, but it's a creative work.

Eric Feng (Host):

Right, a creative work. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

If you are the one who commissioned the video, then you own it. 

Eric Feng (Host):

If I put that quote, something I say, into a picture, that means I put it into an Instagram post with the text, and I put there it's by Eric Feng, then, as long as they don't use that picture, they can still use that text?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

It depends. Depends. So, if you have let's just say a slogan or a catchy tagline, that kind of content is not technically protected by copyright. But what you can do if you have a goal or an image or a tagline is to get it trademarked.

Eric Feng (Host):

Ah.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

That's different from copyright. So trademark is another mechanism under intellectual property law which kind of protects your intellectual property.

Eric Feng (Host):

But when I trademark, I can only trademark visuals? I can trademark icons? I can trademark slogans?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

You can technically trademark a word. But the danger of trademarking a word is that if you trademark a very generic word, for example, beautiful. For example, bright. There is a possibility that your registration may still go though, but what may happen down the road is that if somebody else wants to use that same word, they may challenge your registration, and a court looking at the issue may say, "Actually, your registration shouldn't have gone through because the word you're trying to trademark is-

Eric Feng (Host):

It's too generic.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

It's too generic. It's very descriptive of a product."  

Eric Feng (Host):

And what about a quote? Something I say and I want to trademark that.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

You technically can, you technically can-

Eric Feng (Host):

Awesome.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

But it's got to be special enough.

Eric Feng (Host):

Right. And I need to prove that, no one's said that before.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

You don't technically need to, you know.

Eric Feng (Host):

Oh.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

As long as no one has fought for it. As long as nobody has registered it. It's a first-come, first-serve thing. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it. Another question we get asked a lot. We watch a movie. We hear a song on Spotify, and then we capture the video, for maybe a few seconds to a minute. Or a music that we listen to, we capture fifteen seconds for our Instagram story. Is that actually legal or illegal?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Depends. I know nobody likes to hear the word depends, but we lawyers say it a lot, because it really depends. Many moving parts come into play when you talk about the legality of something that you do. So, if you are taking a snippet of somebody else's work and using it, whether or not that constitutes copyright infringement depends on a number of factors. 

            First, are you using it for a personal purpose, or are you using it for commercial gain?

Eric Feng (Host):

Sure.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

If you're using it for a commercial purpose, to make money off it, then the odds are it might not be seen as what we call fair use. It also depends on how much of the work you reproduce. If the film that you are talking about is two hours long and you reproduce one hour forty-five minutes, then that's not fair, right? 

Eric Feng (Host):

True, but what if it's like maybe a minute?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

A minute is fine, a minute is fine, I think.

Eric Feng (Host):

So it's also by proportion? 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Yeah, by proportion. Other factors that come into play would be whether or not you can obtain that work or that part at a reasonable price. Was there an option for you to pay a reasonable price to use it? Because if there is, then there's no excuse for you to use it without paying. So, when a court has to determine whether or not a use of a particular piece of work amounts to fair dealing, a court will look at all these factors. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Very nice. This is very helpful. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Yeah. 

Eric Feng (Host):

But let's say, at least credit the source, will that at least help us, save us a little bit of legal trouble?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Technically speaking, crediting doesn't help. Technically speaking. What you need to do to get full protection or immunity is to get permission from the copyright owner. I think getting permission is idealistic, but practically, sometimes a bit difficult. You may see something that you like on the Internet. For example, you may see a photo that you like on the Internet that you want to use in PowerPoints slides, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

Yes, exactly.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

But you don't know who the original owner of this photo is.

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah, especially on Google, it will say, subject to the copyrights, but we have no idea whose it is.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

In those kinds of situations, you cannot get permission because you don't know who the original owner is. The best you can do is to credit it, so that at least your audience and your viewers know that you're not trying to pass off somebody's original work as your own, so back to your question. Crediting isn't a fool-proof chute, but at least if somebody comes after you, you can say, at least I credited that you. I wasn't trying to pretend that I was the original owner. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Correct. And then at most the person would probably just ask you to take it down.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Possibly, they will just comply and say, okay, I'll take it down.

Eric Feng (Host):

What about, I see people using short clips. For example, I create a 2 or 3 minute video, right, and then someone downloaded my video and then posted it on another social media platform, but he or she didn't credit me. Is that considered legal? 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

I think that's fine given the way social media works today. You need to bear in mind a few things, right.  The expectation is that you want people to share it. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Exactly, but I want them to share directly. I may not want them to download that video, and then put it on to the social media page.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Certainly. The law doesn't make a distinction between sharing, meaning click the share button so that at least it leads viewers back to your page, and then downloading it and putting it on my social media page. The law doesn't yet make the distinction between these two. Of course, to content creators, it's an important distinction, right? But I think the law hasn't caught up.

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it. So what it means is let's say in Singapore we have Asgang [phonetic 00:27:38], and they post very funny videos. I could actually just extract that video, and I can post it on my website?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Yeah. In that case, in a situation like that, I think it's going to be quite clear to whoever is seeing that video on the re-posted site that it's not yours, man. I mean, it's very clearly Asgang's [phonetic 00:27:58]. And people are unlikely to think that you are the one who produced it.

Eric Feng (Host):

So I guess as a content creator, we just need to learn how to put our personal signature to our videos. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Yeah, you your video, or you put your branding on your video so that it becomes very obvious to the world that it came from you. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Even though it's on our website, they're going to see it and know, Uncle Roger, I see orange, I know Uncle Roger.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Yeah.

Eric Feng (Host):

Orange for legal. I got it. So that means to say, you know WhatsApp, like my dad will always forward me very nice videos, inspirational videos. I have no idea where the source is. I could just download it and post it on my Facebook page and that's fine?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

I guess you could, unless of course, I mean, you can always do things until you can't do things, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

Correct. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

So it depends. You've got to be mindful of a number of factors. Is this video something that's created by an individual that's not known? It's somebody's travelog for example, someone took this photo of a waterfall in Iceland, then I guess you could safely repost it. Very nice. I want to visit this place. But if it's from Disney-

Eric Feng (Host):

Marvel, Sony-

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

What have you, then you may want to think twice, right about reproducing it.

Eric Feng (Host):

Okay, so look at the source.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Yeah. So if somebody sends you clip of let's say an Avengers movie that runs one hour thirty minutes. You don't want to repost that, right? 

Eric Feng (Host):

Absolutely.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Because-

Eric Feng (Host):

The lang method, the source of the platform matters as well.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

These are the corporations who have more to lose from these kind of unlawful repostings, and these are also the corporations who have the pockets to come after you.

Eric Feng (Host):

Another question. I watch a video on Douyin. You know Douyin, it's like TikTok Chinese version. There are a lot of very inspirational Chinese videos.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Right.

Eric Feng (Host):

I take the story out, I translate it in English, and I redo the video. Is that copyright infringement?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Possible. There have been many past examples of this happening, so what happened was, I knew [inaudible 00:30:05], who was a very famous--

Eric Feng (Host):

Singer.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Singer, a very famous--

Eric Feng (Host):

Famous writer.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Writer [foreign language 00:30:09] how do you translate it? 

Eric Feng (Host):

Pugilistic.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Pugilistic martial arts comics, or novels or whatever. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Can I just say comics--

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

So what happened was, there were other authors out there who wrote fan fiction online. So you know what fan fiction is, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

Yes, absolutely, yeah.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

These fan fiction that they published online actually sort of made very direct references to the actual characters in the novels, like Yanko [phonetic 00:30:37], Salome, et cetera, et cetera. There was actually a valid case against these people who were reproducing this fan fiction, so they were technically not using the same story lines or plot lines, just using the names, using the characters, writing their own version or their own romanticization of the events. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Why, why is that?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

If you grow big enough, and you are starting to make money off of it, people are going to come after you, right? Maybe it's a little block that you keep the readers limited to your mother and your father and your girlfriend, then I guess no one's going to come after you. But if something that you produce gains traction and your audience starts growing and you start to try to make money off it by say offering advertisements on your site, then people will come after you because technically you are profiteering at my expense. You are using my intellectual property, my ideas, my property, so to speak, to earn money. Why should you be allowed to do that? 

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it. So if you think about it, actually any case you can fight a case if the content creator wants to. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

You could, but it very much depends on like I said, whether or not somebody is going to come after you depends on first how deep their pockets are, and second, whether or not you are making a hell lot of money out of this idea that you're using. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Got it. Wow. Thank you so much, man. I heard about a case where Katy Perry, right, very famous singer, she used a photo that was taken of her and put it on Instagram, and she got sued.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Yeah, because she didn't take the photo herself right.

Eric Feng (Host):

But it's her. That's her image, right?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

This is a question that we get a lot. We are very tired of answering it. I will say.

Eric Feng (Host):

It's fine, it's fine. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

You must really good advice. Technically, at least as far as Singapore law is concerned, the copyright of a photograph lies with the photographer. So if I were to take out my camera phone now and take a photo of you, Eric, and you are famous person, which you undeniably are, it doesn't matter that you're famous, I own the copyright to that photo. Because I took it, okay? And if I were to go and put this photo of you on let's say my law firm website, and I tried to promote my law firm using your image, you can't come after me. Because I own the copyright to that photo.

Eric Feng (Host):

Oh, my God. So if I take a picture of my client and then I post it on the website without his permission, technically I did not make any legal, I did not--

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Well, it depends whether or not you have posted that photo as an individual or as a company.

Eric Feng (Host):

I post it as him. Let's say you're my client, I take a picture of you, you didn't give me a testimonial, but I just, I didn't ask you for permission, I just share your picture and your testimonial on my Instagram story?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Tricky, yeah. Tricky. So if I run a business, and I'm a registered business, I am a company, and I do that, I could potentially be in breach of data protection laws. But you see, the thing about data protection laws, as far as our laws are concerned, they only apply to organizations and corporations. They don't apply to individuals. So if I were to take your photo, and put it on my personal blog, I wouldn't be doing anything wrong. But if I were to take your photo without your consent, and  I put it on my company's website, ah, then my company may get into trouble-

Eric Feng (Host):

Because of the data law, not because of copyright infringement. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Not because copyright infringement.

Eric Feng (Host):

I get it. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Yeah.

Eric Feng (Host):

Ah, this is so useful. Okay. I got it. I guess for now, that's the second area we covered so far, copyright infringement. It's also about the amount that you extract, it also depends on the source and whether you put in effort to credit the person.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

And also the purpose. Are you using it on your personal Instagram page, maybe you just put up an inspirational post on your own Instagram page, or are you using it to make money? Are you commercializing that content?

Eric Feng (Host):

But technically anyone watching this right now, we're all commercializing because we're all content creators. We are entrepreneurs trying to be our own personal brand. So all that content, even though we don't make money directly from that video, but indirectly we are making money from that video.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

So it's considered commercialization.

Eric Feng (Host):

So going back to that, which is a very valued example, if you get inspired by other people's content and you try to translate the Chinese content into English content, for example, technically speaking we must still either ask for their permission, or at least credit them and tell people where we get it sourced. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Or don't be lazy. Don't copy wholesale. I mean, content creators, you guys are very creative people, right, and it's not past your abilities to take something and repackage it, remodel it, so that there is a certain degree of originality to it. I think the risk is most pronounced when you take something lock, stock, barrel reproduce it. Don't believe people when they say imitation is the highest form of flattery. Imitation is also the highest form of legal risk. 

            You can get inspiration, you can repackage, remodel, I think that's fine. I think it's important also, and I'm saying this at the expense of plugging my own services, right. If you are going into a developing a piece of content or working on a project that requires a significance investment in time, effort, etc., I think it's worthwhile to go and speak to somebody who knows copyright law.

Eric Feng (Host):

Exactly.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Like a lawyer, and say, hey, this is what I intend to do. I've taken inspiration from where and where. This is the original content, this is my content, is it going to pass muster? The lawyer can then look at it and say, Oh, looks fine, or they're going to say, you might want to change this a bit, you may want to tweak that a little, so that you go into it with a peace of mind, and you don't forever have that dark cloud looming over your head wondering whether or not someday someone's going to com after you for infringement. 

Eric Feng (Host):

If you're going to be very high profile, then everybody will go after you, right?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Right.  If you're high profile, they will go after you because first they will think that you are very rich and you have deep pockets. Second, they will want to make an example out of you. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Correct. Deterrence, got it. That's why it's always helpful to have a lawyer, as well, for defense strategy.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

More useful to have a lawyer who is a friend who can give you free advice. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Oh, my God-

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Befriend a lawyer, befriend a lawyer, yes.

Eric Feng (Host):

Now, let's move on to the second one, which is, we kind of also covered fair use already.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Yeah, okay. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Maybe, how about just for the recording purpose, what is considered fair use?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Exactly what we talked about earlier. When you take a small, let's say portion of a copyrighted work and you use it.

Eric Feng (Host):

Memes and gifs are okay, right? If you use memes and gifs?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

That's fine, that's fine. Like I said earlier, whether or not something constitutes fair use, there's no one golden fixed standard to it. Whether or not something constitutes fair use depends on a number of factors. What you're using it for, are you trying to get money out of it, how much of it have you used, is it going to be easy or reasonable for you to procure that same content at a decent price, all these factors come into play. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Very nice. So now we know. Now, let's move on to something really, really interesting. Defamation. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Okay. 

Eric Feng (Host):

We get that a lot. By the way, Wei Li is very known as a defamation lawyer. That means, if you ever need to get slandered, or you get libeled, or defamation, by default, Wei Li will be one of the top three names that people say, go talk to him, he's very experienced. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Yay. 

Eric Feng (Host):

I want to know why you have this reputation. Why do people come, recognize you as a lawyer that's good to fight defamation cases?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

I mean, it's a matter of doing it constantly. The law is just like any other skill or profession, the more you do it, the more familiar you are with the area of law and the better you are at it. I think for me, I was lucky enough to have started doing defamation in relation to the Internet. I mean, broadly, in the past when we've talked about defamation, say 30, 40 years ago, we're still looking at defamation in print. Newspapers and magazines, because the Internet isn't all that pervasive. Now, when we talk about defamation, we are really talking about Internet defamation. You can really talk about anybody, anywhere, anytime, over Instagram, over Facebook, on Twitter, over WhatsApp, over email. 

            With these channels of communication becoming more readily available also comes with it a corresponding increase in the number of defamation cases. So, I wouldn't say it's entirely because I'm good, but also because-

Eric Feng (Host):

The demand is higher-

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Because of the environment that we live in. I was lucky enough to have tarted doing a lot of work in defamation in relation to the Internet and in the course of doing that, I developed a familiarity with how the Internet is being used, the different social media platforms, what you can do on them, what you cannot do on them, how you can share things on one platform and not on another platform. So, over time I've learned these things, and I guess it comes with the player.

Eric Feng (Host):

So teach us.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Teach you what?

Eric Feng (Host):

How do we make sure that we can prevent ourselves, as you say the prevention is better than the cure, how can we make sure that we don't get ourselves into defamation suits?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

How to say shit without being sued?

Eric Feng (Host):

Oh, my. That's a much better question.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

That's the title of my book. No, kidding, kidding. 

Eric Feng (Host):

How do we say shit without getting into trouble.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Can you say shit on your podcast?

Eric Feng (Host):

You can, yeah, yeah. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest): (IG story hook)

Okay. Okay, so I can talk to you about this until the cows come home, because we actually do teach courses like this to news outlets, to journalists, to content creators. 

            In a nutshell, if I do something, I would say, maybe three things to look out for. First is, stick to the truth where possible. You cannot be faulted for saying the truth, even if the truth is unpleasant. So, if I were, let's say, a food blogger, and content creator, and I walk into a restaurant, and it's not sponsor of you, for example, and well, I see cockroaches on the floor. The soup was very salty, the bread was burned, and I want to tell these things to my followers. I will say it as it is. I saw cockroaches on the floor, the soup was too salty, the bread was burned. Nobody can fault you for saying the truth.

Eric Feng (Host):

Because it's a fact.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

It's a fact. You can trust this way of saying things, like this food tastes super awful. The restaurant is unhygienic. It becomes a bit ethereal, right, because you introduce some value judgment into the comments that you are making. How do you substantiate super unhygienic? 

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah, it depends.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

You cannot, right? But how do you substantiate a piece of burned bread? With a photo, right? Or a video, right? You can back it up. So stick to the truth as far as possible. 

Eric Feng (Host):

So, whatever I say on social media, as long as I can back it up. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

It's the truth.

Eric Feng (Host):

Then I feel safe. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Then, you are safe.

Eric Feng (Host):

And always stick to facts, not opinions.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

No, no, no, not true, not true. Some facts can get you into trouble. So, if I say, don't take money to Eric. Eric is a money launderer. It's a fact, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

Why?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

No, I'm saying it as a fact. I'm misleading people to think it's a fact, but it's not true. So these are what we call statements of fact, Eric is a money launderer. ABC is a prostitute. XYZ is a-

Eric Feng (Host):

But we must be able to prove it?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

If you want to say a fact like that, you must jolly well be able to--

Eric Feng (Host):

Otherwise, that becomes defamation.

Fong Wei Li (Guest): (IG Story Hook)

Otherwise, it becomes defamation. So, as far as possible, try to steer away from making absolute statements of fact, unless you are very sure you can substantiate it. Which brings me to my next point, substantiation. I mean, I've talked about it. The top point is, try to make it about yourself, not about whoever you're talking about. So, again, let's go back to the food blogger example. There is a difference between saying, don't ever come to this restaurant, versus saying, I would never come back here again. You're sending the same message, your readers are smart. If you say, I will never come back here again, you're effectively telling them, this place is bad, don't go. Right? But the way you have phrased it is different. Don't go back. You are technically rallying people to boycott it, versus, I would never go back.

Eric Feng (Host):

So, if let's saying I'm trying to do a critique of an insurance company, I can say, I would never buy insurance from this company, but I cannot say something like, do no buy insurance from this company. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Yeah, or don't say they're crooks.

Eric Feng (Host):

Again, crook is subjective, it's not a fact.

Fong Wei Li (Guest): (Podcast Hook)

So, for example, if I feel that an insurance agent is very unethical. There is a huge difference between saying, John, my insurance agent, is super unethical, versus saying, if I had a choice, I would never, ever do business with him. Nobody can fault you for not wanting to do business with him. It's your personal preference. But the moment you go and say, hey, it's him, he's unethical, he's a crook-

Eric Feng (Host):

That's defamation. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Then that becomes defamation.

Eric Feng (Host):

That goes to point number two, if you can substantiate it, that's one thing.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

But how to substantiate those kinds of things, right. Readers nowadays are very smart. They can read between the lines, and they want to be able to come to a conclusion by themselves, so just give them the facts to work with and lead them to the conclusion. You can technically send that same message without sounding like you are an angry person, or without running the risk of defaming somebody. 

Eric Feng (Host):

I love that. Riding on what you just said, I just lost my train of thought because it's so juicy, right. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

We haven't gotten to the juicy part. 

Eric Feng (Host):

We have 10 psychologists coming. Is it true that if I make a statement and if I say something like, I believe that, I think that, in my opinion, when I start sentences like that, does that help cushion and maybe even prevent myself from getting a defamation suit? 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

To some extent, yes, but it's not entirely bulletproof. Because if within let's say you write a comment that's three paragraphs long. And within these three paragraphs, every sentence is prefaced with I believe, I think, I feel. If you get sued, a reasonable judge will look at it and say, you cannot be packing 20 allegations into three paragraphs and then be able to then get away with it just by saying I think, I feel, I suppose. At the end of the day, we still go back to the same principles. Are these things capable of being proven as true? Are they capable of being substantiated? Are you saying these things to bring up a point which society needs to know about, which is important for people to know about? 

            I'll give you an example. There was a case, and this is a real case, not that I dealt with it personally, but it's a real case. What happened was that one of the local newspapers ran a story about how a child care center in Singapore was the incubus or the breeding point for hand foot and mouth disease.

Eric Feng (Host):

Oh, my God. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Right? And the story ran by the paper actually ran some allegations about certain hygienic practices were not being carried out, etc. etc. The child care center sued the newspaper and said, hey, how can you say these kinds of things about me, it's defamation. You are ruining my company's reputation. One of the defenses that the newspaper ran was what we in our terms call fair comment. The newspaper said in court, look, I say these things, these things constitute fair comment, because I'm trying to raise a point that I think the public ought to know about. If your child care center is a breeding ground for hoof and mouth disease, don't you think it's something that's of public interest, that people will want to know about so we can take necessary precautions? 

            So if you can prove that what you are saying-

Eric Feng (Host):

Whistle blowing is-

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Something like that. So if you can prove that what you are saying is something that the public would be genuinely concerned about, and that you are making these statements based on what you believe to be true, right, then that's it.

Eric Feng (Host):

With evidence?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Of course. Then, that access a potential [inaudible 00:47:32] to a defamation.

Eric Feng (Host):

Fair comment.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Fair comment, you've got truth. There are a few others, but too much to talk about. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Oh, my God.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Go to law school, they will teach you these things. Go to law school, if you're interested. 

Eric Feng (Host):

I'll make sure to sign up. Or make sure my friend was studying law, right?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Make sure your children, yeah.

Eric Feng (Host):

Now let's move on to the last part of today's interview, which I hold a special interest to, because my personal friend, which is also your friend, Xiaxue.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

I don't know her. Who is she? Is she famous? 

Eric Feng (Host):

She's very famous. And she happens to also be our guest in our all-girl episode here in #HighlySoughtAfter. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

How many episodes behind her am I?

Eric Feng (Host):

You are episode 13.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

I take offense-

Eric Feng (Host):

13 is a very good number. Oh, my God, are you going to sue me? So, anyway, the cancel culture. What's cancel culture? Cancel culture is where you say something and people on the, the netizens, right, they're not happy about it, and they can rally people together to ostracize you and block you and deny you of commercial work, and then you lose your rights, both. And of course we see that happening to a lot of famous people, one of them of course is our friend Wendy Xiaxue. So, how do we make sure that doesn't happen?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Well, the thing about being a content creator is it's not an easy job. You need to constantly straddle what is safe content and what is controversial content.

Eric Feng (Host):

But controversial content is the kind of content that seems to do very well on social media.

Fong Wei Li (Guest): (IG Story Hook)

Controversial content is the kind of content that gets you the eyeballs, right? If you are vanilla all the way, you are not interesting. So, that line is difficult to straddle, and the goalpost keeps changing. What is not acceptable now to say or do could have been perfectly acceptable 10, 20 years ago. Let's not go into the details, but there are certain things you could say or do 20 years ago that if you do now, you would be lynched.

            Let me give you a very good example. If you are free, you go to Netflix, you're going to watch Pochukong [phonetic 00:49:46]. You're going to see the jokes that they make in Pochukong [phonetic 00:49:50], if they make them now, they would be dead. The entire show would get canceled, and the entire cast and crew would get lynched, okay? So, the goalpost keeps changing, so that makes straddling that line, maintaining that balance very difficult.

            So, as content creators, what you need to do with your content really, especially if your ambition is to be controversial, is to run a litmus test. Go show it to your friends. If you are the creator, you are so far down the rabbit hole, you believe so much in your own content, that you think it's right.

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah, you're blindsided. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

It's bias, right, to some extent? So run it through friends. If you have a team, run it through your team and ask them, hey, do you think this is going to pass the litmus test for cancellation? And get a variety of views and opinions. If you are still unsure, then I would say, you see, I wouldn't even say speak to a lawyer, because a lawyer can only tell you whether or not it's legal, but some things may be legal yet cancelable.

Eric Feng (Host):

Oh, I see.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

I would say this is a situation where lawyers might not be very useful. Go get a variety of-

Eric Feng (Host):

What cancel culture is, the power behind cancel culture is the social power--

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

It's not getting sent to jail. It's not getting fined. It's not getting sued. It's being so to speak ostracized.

Eric Feng (Host):

It kills you.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

That kills you. You are judged in the court of public opinion and your income streams are cut off because people decide to withdraw all sorts of financial support or patronage.

Eric Feng (Host):

And can I sue them for doing that?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

You can't. Because it's their choice whether or not they want to do business with you. Can you sue somebody for not walking into your cake shop and then buying your cake?

Eric Feng (Host):

But I can sue the person that started it?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Possibly, possibly.

Eric Feng (Host):

For defamation, maybe.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

If you can show that this whole thing started because somebody made a statement about you that was untrue. Made an allegation about you that was defamatory. Then you can go after this person and say, hey, you were the cause of it, right, and therefore you ought to pay me compensation for putting me in the position I am in today. But even that's, even so, that comes with its own set of difficulties, because at the end of the day, you have to go to court and show that whatever income you have lost was directly caused by this act, and that's not easy to prove. That's not easy to prove.

Eric Feng (Host):

So, the question I have for you is that, we are human beings. We will make mistakes, and if you think about it, a lot of the famous people recently got in trouble for mistakes that they make when they were not that famous. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Eric Feng (Host):

And people are going to use that against personalities.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Right.

Eric Feng (Host):

How can, what can we do? Like, in Wendy's case, people used something that she said, what, 10 years ago? Against her.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Well, I think you should know your own risk level as a public figure or as a content creator. If you haven't already done that, it's a timely juncture to do an update of the past content that you have created. Go back and see whether or not there is anything that-

Eric Feng (Host):

That might be infringing-

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

That's glaringly obnoxious or unacceptable in the context of what people deem to be acceptable today. If you find something like that, just delete it. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Right? 

Eric Feng (Host):

What about critique videos? You know, as a YouTuber, we do a lot of critiques, right? For example, there was this very famous YouTuber that made commentaries about this real estate agent who was trying to make a video selling a property, but of course it was-

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Not in good taste.

Eric Feng (Host):

Yeah, and then it comes to site, he got very good engagement, like people saying, that video wasn't good. But to the person, the real estate guy, could he sue the YouTuber?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

It depends on the content. I'm not familiar with this example.

Eric Feng (Host):

Commentary is really just commentary.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

If it's just satire, and it's just making a joke out of it, I don't think you have that much grounds to sue. Because an obvious satire-

Eric Feng (Host):

By laughing at you, my God, look at Wei Li, why is he acting like that? How he looks like that?

Fong Wei Li (Guest): (IG Story Hook)

It's not grounds for defamation. Again, the line is very thin. Could then something like that be considered cyber bullying? If I take a photo or a video of someone online and then I make fun of this person, and I insult this person, and if the insults are very severe, then it could potentially cross the line and stray into the territory of what we call cyber bullying. And if it strays into the territory of cyber bullying, then we have our own set of, I mean, Singapore has a set of laws that common harassment to deal with cyber bullying. So, I think the overall tip for content creators, whom I work with very often, is, moderation. Moderation. There are two terms to it. Two schools of thought. 

            The first school of thought, which is on one end of the extreme, is that I create my content, I take pride in my content, I should be able to say what I want to say.

Eric Feng (Host):

Correct.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Why should I?

Eric Feng (Host):

Free speech.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Why should I give two hoots about you? The other end of the spectrum, is let's just play it safe, keep everything vanilla. Then you run the risk of not getting eyeballs because you are just another vanilla content creator. So, I think moderation is the key. Moderation is the key. You've got to, like I said, the line is elusive, it's hard to grasp, it's hard to straddle, but one way you can do it is to say, okay, I'm going to create this content, but I will run it by other people to get their views. If you want to run it by other people, listen to them. Don't say, I created this, I run it by you, I know I didn't listen to you.

Eric Feng (Host):

That's confirmation bias.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

And for what? So listen to them and value their opinion and see how you can tweak the content to keep it safe. And of course there are certain areas that you know you cannot touch, right? They are life mind views. You cannot talk about race, you cannot talk about religion, you cannot talk about for example things that matter that impinge upon LGBT rights, because these things are very sensitive topics nowadays, right?

Eric Feng (Host):

And people are very opinionated with those things, right?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Right. So you don't want to, unless you want to create controversy, you're going to poke the sleeping bear, then you do it. If you want to steer clear of being canceled or you want to steer clear of trouble, then I would say, it's best to not even touch these topics. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Fantastic. You know, if there's one thing that I get out of this conversation with you, it's at the end of the day, it boils down to the intent of the content creator. Are you creating this content to divide people, or are you creating this content to unite people?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Right. 

Eric Feng (Host):

Because anything that's controversial tends to divide people, and you're taking advantage of divisive opinions.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

I wouldn't say taking advantage, because as far as my views are concerned, I think that there's always room for discourse in society. And you're entitled to your own views. And if you're a content creator with very strong personal views, I believe we should be able to put out those views for discussion. What I don't technically believe in is a culture of silencing somebody whose views you don't agree with. I mean, to some extent, that's the nature of cancel culture. I don't like what you are saying-

Eric Feng (Host):

Therefore, I cancel you.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Therefore, I don't want you to talk anymore, I cancel you. I don't think that's right.

Eric Feng (Host):

How's that different from bullying then?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

I mean, at least there's what I feel? If you don't agree, then the right thing to do would be to say how you don't agree with this person and to put it out there for a civil debate, and not to say, I don't like what you're saying, I want to cancel you. So, I mean, two sides of the fence to this, and it depends on which side you're on. 

Eric Feng (Host):

I'm just laughing right now because we are kind of about 45 minutes into our interview, we're wrapping up, and I'm just thinking, how much money we have just helped the listeners and viewers save, because of all the awesome legal advice. I'm going to do all of you guys a favor and I'm going to buy Wei Li dinner. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Oh behalf of all y'all.

Eric Feng (Host):

Oh behalf of all the listeners and viewers. So, you know, Wei Li, thank you so much for giving us a clarity on these three big issues. We are very curious about you.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

I'm a very boring person. 

Eric Feng (Host):

I know that you recently started your own firm, and I really very much want you to share with all of us, what is this firm about, what do you specialize, how can we reach out to you for help? 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Yeah, you're right. So I started my own firm early this year, in January. We are a firm that does really primarily Internet and social media work. We advise individuals, public figures, we advise companies, brands, on a spectrum of internet-related issues, from reputation management to things like online payment, data protection, privacy, social media use policies. So we don't only deal with influencers and public speakers, we also work with banks and companies. And besides that, we also do quite a bit of non-Internet work, in terms of disputes, so personally I do quite a bit of work in medical law, employment law, copyright and commercial law. I also do quite a bit of work with Chinese, China-related companies, when they need legal help in Singapore, because I can speak Mandarin. I'm one of the rare lawyers who can speak Mandarin and write Mandarin. So I have a bit of advantage.

Eric Feng (Host):

A little bit of advantage. He speaks very well. Go check him out on Instagram. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Most lawyers cannot speak.

Eric Feng (Host):

English speaking. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

So, that's in a nutshell what we do. I also have a company with a friend who does what we call reputation management. That company is not purely legal, it's more of a digital marketing company where if you have let's say a comment that you don't like about your brand, what we can do is use digital marketing techniques to sort of push down the comment. Non-legal remedies. Because sometimes legal remedies are not the be-all and end-all.

Eric Feng (Host):

Exactly. 

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Like I said, and we discussed this earlier, whatever goes onto the Internet stays there.

Eric Feng (Host):

Stays there forever.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

You can get the person to compensate you, you can get-

Eric Feng (Host):

Damages.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Still, the damage is done, it's still there. So, we hope to try to use these non-legal means to help people protect their reputations, to push down certain so-to-speak listings or content. So that in a nutshell is why I do. I'm very boring. 

Eric Feng (Host):

I tell you, it might be boring for you, but it's actually very interesting for me. I'm just surprised how time flew by just like that. For those of you listening, watching, do check out Wei Li. I'll put Wei Li contact details, Instagram, website, Forward Legal, into our show notes, so if you are building a personal brand and you really do care about your own reputation and you want to be on the safe side, I really think that one of your most important ally is a lawyer.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Wow. Okay. 

Eric Feng (Host):

That is what I personally believe in.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Now I question my friendship with you, Eric.

Eric Feng (Host):

Why?

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

I'm skeptical. Are you really my friend? You really see me as a nice person worthy of being your friend.

Eric Feng (Host):

That's why I invite you on my podcast. So, anyway, Wei Li, thank you so much.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Thanks, thank.

Eric Feng (Host):

For taking the time.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Thanks for having me.

Eric Feng (Host):

We wish you the best for your success.

Fong Wei Li (Guest):

Yeah, thank you so much. Bye. 

Eric Feng (Host):

So, ladies and gentlemen, that was Wei Li from Forward Legal. I think my biggest takeaway is this: One of the biggest fears that content creators, entrepreneurs, service professionals face when we're on social media is we get in trouble and therefore we have a lot of fear and anxiety and worry, but my biggest takeaway from my chat with Wei Li is rather than being fearful, why not take a proactive step to know what you can and cannot do? Once you understand the boundaries of what you cannot do, then everything else becomes playable field for your business, for your reputation, for your brand. So, I encourage you to go watch this video one more time, take lots of notes, and we'll put all the links down there so you guys can check out the notes and the summary and the transcript. We do podcast videos like this once a week, so remember to hit the subscribe button, hit the like button as well, and I'll see you in the next podcast video.