7. How to hustle on social media without losing your peace - Doctor Winston

In this episode of #HighlySoughtAfter, I had a chat with a highly celebrated aesthetic doctor based in Singapore. Even though he doesn’t have a very big following on social media, but he’s constantly booked full and his business is entirely referral based.

During my conversation with him, I realised that Zen Buddhism has a big influence on how he uses social media for his business. My biggest takeaway is learning how to hustle on social media without losing my peace.

Pay special attention to 12:38 when Doctor Winston revealed how we can build a 100% referrals-based business even with a small following. He specifically highlighted the example of financial advisors and insurance agents so look out for that!

Also listen out for Doctor Winston’s answers to the following questions:

• What led you to the medical profession in the first place & then evolve into aesthetics? – 0:12
• What was your biggest struggle as an aesthetic doctor and how do you deal with it? – 2:11
• Would you say one of the challenges is acquiring customers, and is it a big problem for most doctors? – 3:05
• What do you think are a few things you’ve doing right in building a personal brand? – 7:33
• How did you transition your practice to being predominantly referral based? Is there a formula to it? - 12:38
• What advice do you have for financial advisors & service professionals. What advise do you have for them to sell their services? What kind of people can they start knowing offline so that they can build their brand? – 19:20
• I have a sense that Zen Buddhism has a very big part in the way you grew your personal brand. Would you say so? – 20:42
• How do you balance hustle and harmony? – 24:06
• How do we nurture positive energy within us? – 25:00
• How can we slowly start to accept our inadequacies and our lacks? – 26:43
• What are some ways we can practice self-love? – 28:55
• Any advice for those who are in the process of building their personal brand? – 37:41

If you want to keep in touch with Doctor Winston, you can reach him on Instagram @drwinstonlee.

Read these books to become highly sought after in your own industry -> www.pickericsbrain.com

Thank you for listening to this episode of #HighlySoughtAfter! 

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Transcript

Doc. Winston:

I think it was really the adoption of some Zen Buddhist guidelines of approaching life. And I realize that it really, really, really doesn't matte. After you let everything go, things don't much. But it doesn't mean you don't give two hoots about everything in life, the things you still care about, your parents, your family, your friends, but other than that, the traffic light doesn't go in your favor or the water that spilled on you-

Eric Feng:

Or you get a lot less likes on your posts.

Doc. Winston:

Yeah. Or the bird poop on your shoulder today. Whatever, it really doesn't matter.

Eric Feng:

In the grand scheme for things.

Doc. Winston:

In the grand scheme of things.

Eric Feng:

Hi, this is Eric here and you're listening to #HighlySoughtAfter. In today's episode we have with us an aesthetic doctor who has been in the market for four years. And he's just four short years became a leading authority in Singapore. He's also a big lover of Zen Buddhism and horticulture. We'll see how all that fits into personal branding. So please join me to welcome Dr. Winston Lee. Hello.

Doc. Winston:

Thank you, Eric for inviting me.

Eric Feng:

Most welcome. I kind of feel a bit self-conscious because he's after all aesthetic doctor and I feel like every time you look at me, I feel like he's going to deconstruct my face and go like, "You need a sharper nose, you need sharper chin." Is that what's going on in your mind right now?

Doc. Winston:

Maybe. I'll come to that later, I think.

Eric Feng:

Oh, no. Okay. Now, sad story. You know how I got to know you?

Doc. Winston:

Well, you haven't told me that yet.

Eric Feng:

See, what happened was because I have no friends who are aesthetic doctors, but I do want to have a aesthetic doctor in the studio because I thought that was an interesting profession and I feel that personal branding is a very big part of being an aesthetic doctor. So I went to ask around all my friends to say, "Do you know of any influential aesthetic doctor?" And your name kept popping up. So you must have done something right.

Doc. Winston:

Well, I'm glad to hear that. Okay. Yes.

Eric Feng:

So this is tested and proven. So maybe start by introducing yourself. Tell us what led you to the medical profession in the first place, and then from there evolve into aesthetics? That's a very big change.

Doc. Winston:

Yes. Essentially I was doing through my medical rotations. I've done various things, including the pharmaceutical industry, and in late 2014, I met a few friends and then we decided perhaps I could try something new, and starting a clinic was completely novel and alien to myself. So I decided that I can take the plunge and see how is it like to develop into aesthetics world. At that time actually, I thought aesthetics is very superficial. Well, it probably still is to a lot of people, but I think that the superficiality was a bit daunting. But I thought, what the heck? Let's just try it anyway. So since then it has been four years on and I think that it has been a good four years.

Eric Feng:

What was your biggest struggle as an aesthetic doctor?

Doc. Winston:

I think for myself, I can't say for every competitor of mine is that trying to balance, of course one is economics of business with the medical ethics of not overdoing, causing no harm to the patients, and yet balancing it with technical expertise. So trying to struggle and make sure that all three are in absolute balance is actually the hardest part, I think in the aesthetics practice currently.

Eric Feng:

So how do you deal with it?

Doc. Winston:

Well, for me, it's very simple. I don't believe in overselling. I believe in keeping only to the necessities and basics, doing things like advising the patients natural is best, as well as simplicity and harmonious beauty is actually the mix. Key-

Eric Feng:

Would you say that one of the challenge though is acquiring customer? Maybe not for you, but in any practice that you are especially right now, so competitive, acquiring customers, would that be a very big challenge for most doctors?

Doc. Winston:

I would think so, actually, because the main thing now is that the aesthetic world is actually rather competitive and saturated in the local market. Singapore is really that big. And I hear that every few weeks or couple of weeks, there'll be a new clinic popping up somewhere in town.

Eric Feng:

I didn't know that.

Doc. Winston:

So yes, there are a lot of clinics and I know a few friends who has just recently started their own practice. Well, I feel that it is tough to get patients if you are just going to be doing the same old marketing price competition kind of thing. I don't believe that works. I feel at least that's from my personal perspective, is that building your own strong, personal brand as well as being authentic is actually key to getting referrals and referrals are actually best for conversion to real patients. That's my point.

Eric Feng:

So let's dive deep. Very good. Because this whole theme of this whole talk show, how do you solve this about building personal brand? What is a personal brand to you? Everybody has a different definition of a personal brand. What is it to you?

Doc. Winston:

For me, it's simple. I think I want to come across as an authentic person who just happens to be a doctor. And when you understand what people want, which is authenticity as well as honesty, then the brand actually work by itself.

Eric Feng:

I get it. So person before profession.

Doc. Winston:

Yes.

Eric Feng:

So you don't have to always talk about aesthetics, but it's more showing people who you are as a individual?

Doc. Winston:

Yes. Actually, if you go to my Instagram or Facebook, a lot of times I-

Eric Feng:

What is it? Tell us the handle.

Doc. Winston:

Oh, it's Dr. Winston Lee.

Eric Feng:

Yeah. So we'll put it on the captions as well.

Doc. Winston:

Yeah. But I always talk about my personal life more so than work, because I will sprinkle a little work here and there, but people want to know you as a person. I also noticed that if I was looking at my posts, those that I talk about personal life versus those that is work, the work ones tend not to get very good response because people see as it's just economically driven.

Eric Feng:

Or you're selling.

Doc. Winston:

Yes, you're just selling or something like that. So I don't really do that that much.

Eric Feng:

What will you say were one of the best post of yours for IG, do you remember?

Doc. Winston:

I think the best post is usually the post that I appear with my partner, or rather than my ex partner. And it will be things like our anniversaries or our trips or celebrating our love life.

Eric Feng:

So relationship?

Doc. Winston:

Yes. Relationship.

Eric Feng:

Love, very relatable.

Doc. Winston:

I think love sells. Sex sells of course, but love sells a lot-

Eric Feng:

So you have what, naked pictures on your Instagram?

Doc. Winston:

Yeah, I do have the six pack and show it, but down the road, I hope to have-

Eric Feng:

How have you benefited from having a personal brand, I mean besides having referrals?

Doc. Winston:

Of course the business aside, I think people naturally gravitate to you and will have some degree of trust in you because you are a public figure, because so they would be willing to talk to you as well as to discuss any mad insane ideas you have. So if you want to start a new business or a new [inaudible 00:06:55] idea, they may be willing-

Eric Feng:

People will be willing to invest, right.

Doc. Winston:

Yes. Invest or at least be willing to explore in the first place.

Eric Feng:

Got it. So let's break it down. Tell us a little bit about... It's been four years, right?

Doc. Winston:

Yes.

Eric Feng:

How long have you been on Instagram?

Doc. Winston:

Three, three and a half years.

Eric Feng:

Very nice. So one year into the business, you decided... Why do you decide to pick Instagram, not Facebook, YouTube?

Doc. Winston:

Actually Facebook I have a presence, but the thing is that I felt that the Instagram seems to be getting more popular in terms-

Eric Feng:

Is there a reason why for you?

Doc. Winston:

Well, first and foremost at the time the marketing guy which we had was advising on it. So I thought I decided no, since I hired somebody, I really must take his advice. [crosstalk 00:07:36]. But I also noticed that the slant of a lot of these promotional things moved away from Facebook towards Instagram, at least in the local market.

Eric Feng:

My opinion is that Instagram is a very visual platform, so your kind of work, it works very well for very well for a visual platform.

Doc. Winston:

It is. But I think the phase that Facebook still has its realm and its day, because Facebook in Vietnam, in Myanmar still serves as a main source of alternative media and news.

Eric Feng:

Got it. So let's break it down. In these three years of you building your influence, you have more than 10,000 followers. You have a continuous pipeline of customers. It's pretty amazing. What do you think are a few things that you've done right in terms of building your personal brand?

Doc. Winston:

I feel that being real, first and foremost I don't filter my photos, I really [crosstalk 00:08:29].

Eric Feng:

What? So you never use beauty cam?

Doc. Winston:

No, I really have not-

Eric Feng:

Is it because you are aesthetic doctor so you don't...

Doc. Winston:

I want people know that natural is still beautiful. So I have some acne scars, which I have no time to go and laser myself because of downtime and whatnot, but I've done some procedures like Botox to my eyes. I've done some fillers to the cheeks, but that's about it. So, no, I don't do filters for my photos..

Eric Feng:

Got it. So being real is something that you felt people appreciate?

Doc. Winston:

Yes. And being personable and approachable.

Eric Feng:

How do you do that? Especially, do you consider yourself as an introvert or extrovert?

Doc. Winston:

I'm an introvert actually.

Eric Feng:

So how does an introvert... Not assuming that introverts cannot be personable, but I would say that as an extrovert, I'm an extrovert, we wear our energy on our sleeves. And so we're very expressive. But as an introvert, how does an introvert remain or communicate being personable? Is there a way?

Doc. Winston:

I think introverts actually, they must know when to pick their battles when it comes to talking to people. So some days when you are down, just hold back. you don't really need to talk to people, but some days when you are more energetic, you can then reply to people. So people message me DM on Instagram on questions for aesthetics, personal life. I'll take my time to reply to them by and large. Unless they are very weird questions. I will respond to every single one. I think it's just courtesy. When you ask a question, you hope to be answered.

Eric Feng:

Very nice. So respond to all comments and DMs.

Doc. Winston:

Yes.

Eric Feng:

But at a time where you feel comfortable?

Doc. Winston:

Yes.

Eric Feng:

Okay. What else do you do to be personable? I mean, you look personable. Is there a face look?

Doc. Winston:

I think a smile works.

Eric Feng:

Can you Botox a personable face?

Doc. Winston:

You can't, sadly. But you can always put that into your mental state being, being Zen and being happy. So I think that will help put a smile on your face and having a smile on your face makes you personable. People like people who smile, but it must be a real smile.

Eric Feng:

Exactly. So whenever you meet people, what is in your mind?

Doc. Winston:

It really depends on the-

Eric Feng:

To help you to be able to connect with them.

Doc. Winston:

It depends on the energy of the day, really Eric. So on the good days when you're energetic, I would say I can go up to a person say, "Hey, hi, what do you do? And I am Winston and this is what I do." So it's actually not too difficult.

Eric Feng:

Just being friendly.

Doc. Winston:

Just friendly.

Eric Feng:

Okay. So that's two. Be personable, be authentic.

Doc. Winston:

Yes.

Eric Feng:

Third one?

Doc. Winston:

Okay. I'm really-

Eric Feng:

Getting as much as we can out of Dr. Winston.

Doc. Winston:

Well, the third one is actually the hardest.

Eric Feng:

Exactly, because these are the two normal ones that we know already, but if you go deeper, there are so many others aesthetic doctors that I later on went to research and they are proactively growing a personal brand, but somehow I just feel that you're doing quite effortlessly, or maybe you did put in effort.

Doc. Winston:

I'm sure I must have put in effort this time.

Eric Feng:

But what's your uniqueness?

Doc. Winston:

Well, I think another thing for myself is that I'm open about my sexual orientation. So I think that helps because-

Eric Feng:

Why?

Doc. Winston:

There's a large part of my patients were actually from the gay community.

Eric Feng:

Got it. So could it be that there's resonance between your community and yourself? They can relate to you. That's relateability as well.

Doc. Winston:

Yes. Relatability, yes. That's the word you use.

Eric Feng:

So maybe actually that's the big one, is being relatable, being authentic?

Doc. Winston:

Yes.

Eric Feng:

So tell us a bit about your market, when we are growing our followers, I think one of the very important question to ask is who are our fan base? We can't go after everybody because we're not appreciated by everybody. How do you find your market?

Doc. Winston:

I think the gay community forms a large part of my market, because being gay, and being understanding of the needs of gay people. So including the need for superficial beauty, sad but true, the need to cater to certain aspects of their health, the gay health aspect. So I think that actually allows them to know that I'm the person to approach if they have such queries.

Eric Feng:

Got it. So it's the similarity.

Doc. Winston:

The similarity. The resonance. I call it the resonance.

Eric Feng:

So that was the big one. So you find that community and how do you nurture that? Do you go look for gay people on Instagram to follow them so the more you get attention in the gay community?

Doc. Winston:

Actually I don't really actively do that, but when they follow me, if I look at their profile and they look like you're a nice relatable person, I'll follow them back and then will get to know them better, because every person you know well can become a potential point of reference in the future.

Eric Feng:

Got it. And I'm very curious, it gets a lot of referrals. In fact, your whole business is referral-based, right?

Doc. Winston:

Yes, true.

Eric Feng:

Tell us a little bit about how do you make your practice referral-based. Is there a formula to it?

Doc. Winston:

Well, for me right now in my current practice, I don't believe in packages. So there are no packages and whatnot. So I don't feel that there's a need to tie any one down. Come when you want to see me, I'm happy to answer your questions. And then if necessary we do. So once off payment, that really relieves the pressure and the stress of us seeing each other, not hard selling, I don't feel that you are trying to be-

Eric Feng:

And I go to you, I also don't feel like you're going to send me something again and again.

Doc. Winston:

Yeah. [crosstalk 00:13:47]. You will know what I'm going to tell you. You will know what I want to do for you. And actually, a lot of times I would tell them, especially if they are new to aesthetics, I would tell them, "Look, go back. You just pay the consultation fee, you go back, think about it. If you want to see me again, you message. And then we can arrange an appointment." Well, frankly speaking, I think about a good 90 over percent will actually still come back eventually. I want to avoid the idea of buyer's remorse, which is something that a lot of people face in any sales line.

Eric Feng:

Yeah, but aesthetic buyer remorse is not too bad, right? You did my nose and then I come back and say, "I don't want this nose. Give me back my old nose." Can I?

Doc. Winston:

It may be so.

Eric Feng:

Possible?

Doc. Winston:

So I want them to know is that go and Google, go and read about the results, the bad results, and then decide whether the risks will affect you.

Eric Feng:

It means make an informed decision before you come for your [crosstalk 00:14:35].

Doc. Winston:

Informed decision. Yes, you're right.

Eric Feng:

I hear you. So that's one. So I think patients respect you because you're not selling, you're thinking from their point of view. If fact, you're not even in a hurry to get a sale, which is very opposite of what sales people do, right?

Doc. Winston:

Yes.

Eric Feng:

Maybe that's one. What else do you think you did right to get so many referrals?

Doc. Winston:

The second thing is that when I see my patients, I actually enjoy seeing them. I actually become friends with them. I can go party with them. Yes, I know some people would be frowning upon it, but I feel going partying with them, going for coffees with them, having dinners with them, it really endears you to them.

Eric Feng:

Imagine.

Doc. Winston:

Yeah. The rapport you get, the trust you get and not hard selling them anything, they will be very happy to refer their-

Eric Feng:

But that's ironic because you're an introvert, an introvert tends to be very critical about their social circle, but how do you do it? How do you wire yourself in a way that allows you to embrace the diversity of everybody?

Doc. Winston:

Well, I think the main thing about introverts is that we are okay with smaller groups, maybe one to one, one to two. We are not good in big groups. So I do very well when it comes to one-to-one interaction like what we're having right now.

Eric Feng:

By the way, this is my first time meeting him.

Doc. Winston:

It's our first time, yes.

Eric Feng:

And I was thinking, should we take the risk? Should I get to know Dr. Winston first? And I figured, you know what, no. Authenticity, right, and we're busy recording our conversation.

Doc. Winston:

Sure. Yes.

Eric Feng:

Okay. So referrals is about not being salesy and being-

Doc. Winston:

Friendly and [crosstalk 00:15:55].

Eric Feng:

Being friendly and personal life.

Doc. Winston:

Yes.

Eric Feng:

Okay. Anything else you felt you did right that allowed you to have that kind of influence?

Doc. Winston:

I think those are the two main things when it comes to the business perspective and being, like I said previously, being open with my personal life so that people can read what I do and whatnot. I think it helps them know me as a person as well. So it all panned out very well so far.

Eric Feng:

Do you ever feel like if you share so openly, especially the gay community is pretty much, they get the good and bad. There are supporters, but there are also haters.

Doc. Winston:

Yes, always.

Eric Feng:

Aren't you worried that by doing that, you polarize yourself with the community?

Doc. Winston:

I think it's all a state of mind really. So if I believe that what I'm doing is right and that I'm just being completely open, you can decide. How you respond to it is really up to you. It's not really for me to decide how you respond. I can control what I can control, but I cannot control everything else like how you think or whatnot. So I'm not worried about haters or likers and whatnot. I just decide to post, because I wanted to post it.

Eric Feng:

Wow. Okay. So even you've received negative remarks-

Doc. Winston:

It's okay.

Eric Feng:

... you're immune?

Doc. Winston:

It's okay. It does not matter, because-

Eric Feng:

I forgot this guy's into Zen Buddhism. I thought I'm just talking to a monk who will look at me, and feel like I'm asking a stupid question, like, "What, likes, dislike. It does not matter."

Doc. Winston:

Life is as life is. So that's the way I approach-

Eric Feng:

So whenever you post something or you do what you do, you don't really worry too much about, "Oh, is this going to make me very likable? Or is this going to make me very influential? Oh, this post, very good. Sure got a lot of likes." You don't think that way?

Doc. Winston:

No, I post only because I find that it's interesting or significant to myself.

Eric Feng:

To you or to your followers?

Doc. Winston:

To myself. IG to me, Instagram is an expression of your inner self. People want to read you or know you, that's really the purpose if IG. That's my personal experience.

Eric Feng:

Got it. Because you believe that, first of all, let them know you, like you first. And then later on, when they realize that you are aesthetic doctor, well, then they will be open to that?

Doc. Winston:

They can ask me questions. I'm willing to answer. So the IG is a open book, really.

Eric Feng:

Okay. So perhaps something for us to think about, which is to use IG as a personal journal to share our life.

Doc. Winston:

It is a personal journal. It is.

Eric Feng:

But yet at the same time to be willing to share a lot, because not all of us are very open to sharing, right?

Doc. Winston:

You just need to be open about it.

Eric Feng:

Got it. Now I see that you're on a couple of magazines. Most recently, Icon. Wow. How did that happen?

Doc. Winston:

Well, out of the blue someone messaged me and told me that they wanted to interview me for a feature on aesthetic doctors. So I was like, "Oh, okay. But how do you come across me out of the blue?"

Eric Feng:

[foreign language 00:18:45].

Doc. Winston:

Yeah. Exactly. So what happened was apparently someone that I worked with before was one of their close friends. And then she recommended me.

Eric Feng:

Worked with as in your patient?

Doc. Winston:

Yeah, no. Long ago, like four years ago, she used to be one of our PR people. And she has since left, doing her own freelance things. So this was completely a goodwill recommendation with no benefits or what not to her at all. So I'm actually very happy that I have left a positive impact on people, and people are willing to recommend me where necessary.

Eric Feng:

Do you have a system? Because after a while, you're going to get very busy. Everybody want to get to know you. Do you have a story, how do you build a network? Do you have certain groups of people that you spend more time with, you curate your network? Do you do that?

Doc. Winston:

Personally, I don't. I believe that everyone deserves time if they want time from me. It's just that it's about time management and deciding where to place them in the week. So if let's say a few friends wants to have dinner, you just need to, if you can fit them in, fit them in accordingly.

Eric Feng:

So let's say for a person... So I'll give you a challenge again. So the people watching this, they are financial advisors, they also service professionals like yourself. What advice do you have for them? Because they need to sell their products, they need to sell their services. We get, we should not be upfront about that. We should let our followers know us first. But what kind of people offline can they start knowing so that they can also grow their brand like you did?

Doc. Winston:

Okay. I really feel that the normal person who you feel may not be your best lead, can really turn out to be a potential lead of a lot of referrals.

Eric Feng:

Did that happen for you?

Doc. Winston:

Yeah. So there are some patients that when they come in, you may get the feel that they don't seem like they have that much money from the economic perspective. But after you talk to them, you just impress upon them that you are just out to help them, do whatever they need. I was surprised that actually she was one of the biggest spenders, which you wouldn't have known.

Eric Feng:

Looks is deceiving.

Doc. Winston:

Yes, looks are deceiving. As well as she recommended friends as well. So sometimes you really don't know. So I feel don't be quick to write off the person who you think is not worth your time. Everyone is worth your time.

Eric Feng:

Is that how you see the world?

Doc. Winston:

I think so.

Eric Feng:

Hey, this is Eric here. Just dropping in to check in on you. Are you getting value so far from this interview? Because if you are, I'm very happy for you, and I'm really curious to know what are some of the key takeaways. So after the interview, go to social media, screenshot your learnings and tag me, all right, so that we can connect. Okay. Okay. I'm going to leave you to listen to the rest of the interview. Enjoy.

            I also have a sense that Zen Buddhism has a very big part to play in the way you grow your personal brand. Would you say so?

Doc. Winston:

It definitely has impacted me in the recent past, especially in the past year or so.

Eric Feng:

Tell me more about it. How did that impacted you?

Doc. Winston:

Well, first and foremost, I mean, there were upheavals in my personal life over the past year or so, but with the influence of Zen Buddhism, I feel that I really managed to cope with the losses or gains, hardships much better.

Eric Feng:

So that's in your personal life?

Doc. Winston:

Yes.

Eric Feng:

How did that help you in professional life?

Doc. Winston:

Well, in professional life, you realize that the patients that come and see you, they may like you, they may not like you. It does not matter.

Eric Feng:

Okay. You [crosstalk 00:22:30].

Doc. Winston:

If they like you, they will come back to you again.

Eric Feng:

If they don't like you?

Doc. Winston:

They will go to someone.

Eric Feng:

So it's like everything you hold is very loosely.

Doc. Winston:

Yes. And by not holding great attachment to it, you will actually be able to hold it better.

Eric Feng:

You need to say that again. One more time.

Doc. Winston:

Oh, wow.

Eric Feng:

That was very good. It was a good takeaway [crosstalk 00:22:48].

Doc. Winston:

By not holding onto anything too tightly, you actually will hold onto it much better. You try holding a fist full of sand, the harder you hold it, the more it slips through the fingers.

Eric Feng:

Oh my God. Would you say that fame and influence the same thing? Fame, influence, prosperity popularity?

Doc. Winston:

Even love.

Eric Feng:

Even love?

Doc. Winston:

Yes.

Eric Feng:

How do you capture the spirit of a beautiful bird, right?

Doc. Winston:

Yes.

Eric Feng:

Be a sky, not be a cage.

Doc. Winston:

Freedom is key in everything in life.

Eric Feng:

So the people watching this are hustlers, they're really working very hard.

Doc. Winston:

Hustlers, okay.

Eric Feng:

Yeah. My followers are all hustlers like me. We want to know how-

Doc. Winston:

Go-getters.

Eric Feng:

Yeah. Go-getters want to be influencers. I look at hustler in a very positive way. Like the Gary V kind of nature. So we all want to be influential for good reasons. We want to be able to have our voice heard and want to be able to help people in our own capacity. But obviously, it's getting harder and harder to build influence on social media.

Doc. Winston:

It is.

Eric Feng:

And we're not just talking about influence media, even offline, meeting the right people. So a lot of times we tend to fight for it, but we don't get it and we get disappointed. But what I'm hearing from you today is, you know what, do it, but do it with a heart of rest. Is that okay?

Doc. Winston:

That's perfect. I think that's the perfect way of saying it.

Eric Feng:

That's how I'm sensing from you. It's not that you're not doing it.

Doc. Winston:

Do it.

Eric Feng:

You do it, but you don't do it with an expectation that, I must get this. I will do what I need to do. If I have it, it's meant to be if I don't have it, well, it's not meant to be.

Doc. Winston:

Awesome.

Eric Feng:

Is that how I summarize it?

Doc. Winston:

Well put.

Eric Feng:

I think I'm getting it. I'm getting your style. So how do you got introduced to Zen Buddhism in the first place, and that led you to have this epiphany?

Doc. Winston:

I've always believed in certain aspects of Buddhism, be it karma, be it reincarnation, and in the recent year or so, I have gone for some reading, some more understanding about Buddhism, and the fact that it really helps you cope very well with things. It's actually, as long as it answers your questions, it's a good recipe book. Isn't it?

Eric Feng:

Yeah.

Doc. Winston:

So that's why I adhere to it a lot more now.

Eric Feng:

So the letting go and the rest is a very big principle of it.

Doc. Winston:

Yes.

Eric Feng:

So how do you balance? Because we still need to go out there and-

Doc. Winston:

Hustle.

Eric Feng:

Hustle, right. Any guide for us, for the everyday people who we have targets to hit, yet at the same time, we know that, okay, we don't go too fast. We don't go too hard, because if it's not meant to be, it's not meant to be? I feel like it's a constant struggle.

Doc. Winston:

It's a constant struggle. And I think it's a very hard struggle for everyone actually.

Eric Feng:

Tough. Yeah.

Doc. Winston:

So I think I adhere to one simple principle. A roof over your head, food on the table. If you find real peace within yourself, really everything will just flow much better after that.

Eric Feng:

And you mentioned something just now. You said that when we don't hold too tight, ironically, we start attracting it.

Doc. Winston:

Yes. Positive energy will attract positive energy. And I really mean the really positive, not the put up fake, "Oh, I'm so positive." No, that doesn't work. You have to be truly at rest. And somehow things will pan out nicely.

Eric Feng:

Very nice. So teach us about that. How do we first nurture positive energy in us? Especially if we always very negative in our thinking?

Doc. Winston:

You do not. Embrace the fact that you have negative energy, and then you work at chipping away at it.

Eric Feng:

How to chip our negative vibes?

Doc. Winston:

Once you know that the negativity is there, then you do things that slowly depreciate the negativity. So-

Eric Feng:

Suggestions?

Doc. Winston:

So for instance, let's say you feel like you are so fat, so ugly and whatnot, accept the fact that you are fat, accept the fact that you are not very attractive, but what are you going to do about it? Like getting the right cleansers, curing the acne issues over time, taking the right medications, starting to hit the gym, these are little steps. And eventually when you reach a certain phase where you are less heavy, you feel more attractive, it becomes positive by itself.

Eric Feng:

Wow. So would you say that a positive self image is at the core of one's positive energy?

Doc. Winston:

Yes.

Eric Feng:

Because when we start to accept ourselves and even love ourselves, then people around us will start to accept us and love ourselves?

Doc. Winston:

Yes.

Eric Feng:

Could it be?

Doc. Winston:

Loving yourself is key. So I feel that if you can't love yourself, you can't love anyone else. It sounds very Ru Paul, I think.

Eric Feng:

No, but I love it. I love it because today we're talking about personal branding and it seems like for many interviews that we've done, a lot of it has got to do with understanding our followers, which is important, understanding the market. But this is one of the rare episodes where you are helping us to take an inward journey to ourselves. Because if you do even like yourself, how can you expect other people to like you?

Doc. Winston:

Exactly. So if you're hustling and maybe you're working out there, we need to be real. We need to be truly comfortable with ourselves before people be comfortable with you.

Eric Feng:

Teach us. How can we slowly, slowly, slowly start to accept our inadequacies and our lacks?

Doc. Winston:

Yesterday I was just doing a... I think you're aware. I was just doing a IG story of asking people to ask me for heartbreak advice and whatnot. Well, I realized that everyone has the same few questions, which is inadequacies, how to cope with the ex that is no longer with them.

Eric Feng:

Loss.

Doc. Winston:

Unrequited love and whatnot, it's always the same questions. And it really tells me that all of us are very similar, but our frame of mind, when we approach the similar problems differ. So look at Bill Gates. He can solve problems or build a big career. That's really because his frame of mind was the right frame of mind. So if we move our frame of mind from a reality that we see only sadness to one where we can see positivity, we are done already.

Eric Feng:

In other words, tell a different story.

Doc. Winston:

Yes. Your reality is really what you see.

Eric Feng:

We tried an experiment. Someone once do this to me. So you hit my hand.

Doc. Winston:

Okay.

Eric Feng:

Okay. Don't hit harder. So Dr. Winston is the hit my hand, right? He doesn't like me. So I told a story. The fact is he hit my hand, but I told a story. And that is Dr. Winston don't like me, or I could say that, "Oh, there was a mosquito here and he was trying to hit it."

Doc. Winston:

It is what you think.

Eric Feng:

It is what I interpret it to be.

Doc. Winston:

Exactly.

Eric Feng:

So in other words, yes. The fact is you might be overweight. The fact is you might not be very popular. The fact is you're not doing well, but be careful about the story you tell.

Doc. Winston:

Yes, you're right. You're right.

Eric Feng:

Okay. I wasn't expecting all this. I was expecting tactics, strategies.

Doc. Winston:

On how to build a IG following and whatnot?

Eric Feng:

Yeah. Exactly. But I enjoy this conversation as well, because if we can't fix ourselves... At the end of it, we are the core of everything that we do.

Doc. Winston:

You're right.

Eric Feng:

So if we solve us, which is the common denominator, then everything gets solved, or everything opens up.

Doc. Winston:

Both the exterior aspects as well as the internal beauty. I think these are two things that we need to settle ourselves.

Eric Feng:

So number one, love ourselves. Give any practical tips on how to love ourselves, like give ourselves hugs?

Doc. Winston:

I don't believe in all those things. It's really a mental mind where you accept that you are really just, you're unique, but you are just part of a bigger universe and there are really a lot of good self help books. One of them I actually-

Eric Feng:

It's like he's the author of a book and we're bringing him to do interview. But okay, tell us. Tell us about this book.

Doc. Winston:

This book is The Things You Can See Only When You Slow Down. I bought it a couple of days ago and I think it's an awesome book.

Eric Feng:

It's so strange. It's the most serendipity moment because my best friend, Cintha, she just bought me this book as well. I have not read it yet.

Doc. Winston:

You should.

Eric Feng:

Yeah. Exactly. That was what she exactly said, "Eric, when I walk into the MPH, I saw that book. I knew that book was supposed to be your book," because I guess we all run and we don't enjoy the beauty of the world.

Doc. Winston:

Calm the mind so the world will be calm around you.

Eric Feng:

Okay. Wow. That one's deep. Say it one more time.

Doc. Winston:

Calm the mind, so that the world will then become calm around you.

Eric Feng:

An analogy would be if the water is stormy, you can't see your reflection. But if you calm the water, everything will come clearer.

Doc. Winston:

You calm your own mind, then the water will somehow seem clearer.

Eric Feng:

This is very-

Doc. Winston:

Zen.

Eric Feng:

You call it Zen, I call it [inaudible 00:31:16]. Okay. So, wow. We're going to consolidate some of the Zen. This is like the Zen habits of personal brand. Let's see if we can recall. Okay. So number one is about telling the right story. Number two, it's not in order. Number two it's learning how to let go. Number three is learning how to slow down, so you get crystal clarity around you.

Doc. Winston:

Correct.

Eric Feng:

Okay. Number four is when people like you, don't like you, it really doesn't matter because in the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter.

Doc. Winston:

Yes, it does not.

Eric Feng:

It does not matter at all. So, wow. That gives you a lot of liberty and freedom. That, [crosstalk 00:31:51]. Even you look at all the bad stuff, like get in trouble on social media. Recently the am I Chinese? What was it? Is it because I'm Chinese? [Pu 00:32:04] Girl.

Doc. Winston:

Oh yes. That one. Yes. Pu Girl. Yeah.

Eric Feng:

Pu Girl, right. I heard that she had to leave the country, but I'm sure give or take, two, three years, maybe even one year, people will not remember.

Doc. Winston:

People have short memories. Three months, they are probably forgetting.

Eric Feng:

You're so confident, in three months people forget about it?

Doc. Winston:

People forget very quickly.

Eric Feng:

Because there will always be another person that will come up.

Doc. Winston:

New story, new thing, new drama.

Eric Feng:

Guys, maybe this is so good advice for all of you. You know what, my followers are very self-conscious and they're very scared of making mistakes. So every time they post something they worry about critics. We think too much.

Doc. Winston:

Yes. I can understand that because I used to be like that.

Eric Feng:

Okay. And then what was the epiphany?

Doc. Winston:

I think it was really the adoption of some Zen Buddhist guidelines of approaching life. And then you realize that it really, really, really doesn't matter after you let everything go, things don't matter so much. But it doesn't mean you don't give two hoots about everything in life. There are things you still care about, your parents, your family, your friends. But other than that, the traffic light that doesn't go in your favor or the water that spilled on you-

Eric Feng:

Or you get a lot less likes on your posts.

Doc. Winston:

Yeah. Or the bird poop on your shoulder today. Whatever, it really doesn't matter.

Eric Feng:

In the grand scheme of things.

Doc. Winston:

In the grand scheme of things.

Eric Feng:

So Dr. Winston, can you share with us one of your favorite quotes from this book then?

Doc. Winston:

Wow. I think these two phrases in the first chapter actually resonates very well with me.

Eric Feng:

Okay. Share with us.

Doc. Winston:

So one of it is that everyone appears as Buddhas in the eye of the Buddha and everyone appears as pigs in the eyes of a pig.

Eric Feng:

Very comfortable.

Doc. Winston:

So it really suggests that the world is experienced according to the state of one's mind. And the next phase that I like best is when your mind rests, the world also rests.

Eric Feng:

We'll go with the first one, because it's so thick with wisdom, right?

Doc. Winston:

Yes.

Eric Feng:

Let's go with the first one. So the first one is the world is essentially just a reflection of how you see the world.

Doc. Winston:

Yes.

Eric Feng:

So if I see the world as a cruel world, I will start to attract a lot of haters because [crosstalk 00:34:05].

Doc. Winston:

Correct. You are right.

Eric Feng:

But if I see the world as a world of loving kindness, and then I'll start to pay more attention, and I'll start attract that.

Doc. Winston:

And you will probably start doing more good kindness yourself.

Eric Feng:

And it perpetuates.

Doc. Winston:

It perpetuates.

Eric Feng:

So from a practical point of view, I think guys, what would be really helpful is to start listing down what kind of followers that you would love to attract.

Doc. Winston:

Correct. All of us want to have followers who believe in what we do. Like for instance, like my concept of harmonious beauty or not doing too much in aesthetics, I want people who follow me to have the same kind of beliefs. I don't really want to other people who like to overdue it on aesthetics, like to look very artificial. That's not the people I want to attract.

Eric Feng:

Got it. And so you already see the followers or the customers you want to attract. You see the world as you want it to be and somehow or other, you end up living in that world.

Doc. Winston:

Correct.

Eric Feng:

Wow.

Doc. Winston:

So my main focus now, my newfound interest is actually acne management and scar management, because I believe in one thing, returning the confidence back to the patient and you know how when you are young and you have acne, the psychological that you experience-

Eric Feng:

I've been through that. The doctor even have to give me Roaccutane.

Doc. Winston:

Roaccutane. Yes.

Eric Feng:

It's actually very bad for guys, though. It will get guys to be impotent.

Doc. Winston:

Not really.

Eric Feng:

Overdosage of-

Doc. Winston:

You'll have hair loss and all that. So [crosstalk 00:35:31].

Eric Feng:

Hair loss. No wonder I got so little hair, guys. Got it. Okay. So let's go back to that first quote. So I get it already. So we need to see the world as we want it to be and we start to attract that.

Doc. Winston:

Yes. Correct.

Eric Feng:

Second quote was...

Doc. Winston:

When the mind rests, the world also rests.

Eric Feng:

Okay. How do you link that to personal branding?

Doc. Winston:

Well, I think it goes back to the topic which I brought up earlier about when you post, you don't really need to worry too much about how people respond to it. So for me, Instagram is really a personal story, a personal journey. I post on things like my recent post is about me guiding and counseling a patient of mine in her relationship issues and whatnot. To me, that was full for me in terms of her afternoon, because I returned her sanity. People may think I'm being fake or think that, "Oh, that's such an awesome thing." It really does not matter to me.

Eric Feng:

Because you're not doing it for validation.

Doc. Winston:

I'm not doing it for their validation. I did it because she needed it.

Eric Feng:

And you are just expressing it-

Doc. Winston:

On IG.

Eric Feng:

On IG.

Doc. Winston:

That's all.

Eric Feng:

I like what Dr. Winston said just now. I will not spoil it for you. Something about the ball game one. Would you want to say?

Doc. Winston:

Oh, okay. So I have one friend who told me something which resonated with me a lot, which is IG followers and lights are really just like monopoly money. It's all illusionary. And then Eric will probably ask me, why do I think that, right?

Eric Feng:

Yeah. Why? Why?

Doc. Winston:

Because I feel that now in the realm where there are a lot of people who can buy likes, who can buy followers, the numbers is really not key anymore. What I believe is more important is from our little cubbyhole, what is our impact on people? For instance, the financial advisors, have you posted something that gives your clients more faith in financial products, even then more faith in the sanctity of insurance or about preparing for retirement? Have you won their trust? It's not really 100,000 followers or 200,000 followers. If none of them really believe in you, it's just a number.

Eric Feng:

Nice. So it's about whenever you post, it's not to get likes or not get sales even, but post because you truly want to make an impact.

Doc. Winston:

Correct.

Eric Feng:

Even if only one person read it, you feel happy because you've made an impact in their life. That's the mindset that you need.

Doc. Winston:

It is. Correct. So as long as you understand that, then I guess that IG becomes a very useful tool to you.

Eric Feng:

Or any social media platform for that matter.

Doc. Winston:

Yeah. Any social media actually.

Eric Feng:

Then you don't get so caught up with the science of the numbers, but you get into the heart of what this being an influencer is all about.

Doc. Winston:

Exactly.

Eric Feng:

Beautiful. I love this. Got it. Right. So phew, it was not that bad. I got some good tips on what I should do. So one day if you see me, my face a little changed in a holistic and natural way, well, you know who is the guy who is helping me. So we've come to the end of the episode. Thank you very much for watching #HighlySoughtAfter with Dr. Winston Lee. Do you have any final words for our viewers? Any advice for them as they grow their personal brand?

Doc. Winston:

Well, I would really hope that everyone posts things on Instagram or any social media that impacts people. When you really impact someone, they will really be your long-term fans and your long-term customers. So don't try and target the short-term gains, there's really no point.

Eric Feng:

So aim for impact.

Doc. Winston:

Yes.

Eric Feng:

Well said, and I look for it to bring more special guests to you. let us know who you have in mind as guests. And plus, you can continue this conversation with Dr. Winston. What's your IG handle?

Doc. Winston:

It will be Dr. Winston Lee.

Eric Feng:

Dr. Winston Lee. All right. Thank you very much. See you really soon. Bye.

Doc. Winston:

Bye.

Eric Feng:

Thank you so much for listening to the entire interview. I trust that it was valuable to you. Now, it would mean the world to me if you could write me a review. So who knows? Your review may be feature it in the very next episode. So what are you waiting for? Go, go write a review now.

            #HighlySoughtAfter.