The #HighlySoughtAfter Talk Show

4. How to build an authentic personal brand on social media – Nat Ho

January 11, 2021 Eric Feng
The #HighlySoughtAfter Talk Show
4. How to build an authentic personal brand on social media – Nat Ho
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode of #HighlySoughtAfter, I had a chat with a Singaporean multi-hyphenate Nat Ho. Singer. Actor. Producer. Entrepreneur. Having been in the limelight since 2004, Nat will share with you the good, the bad and the ugly of being a public figure.
 
Pay special attention to 51:00 when Nat revealed the most important factor that powers an authentic personal brand on social media. Do this well and you will never be at the mercy of self-doubt and criticism.   

Also listen out for Nat’s answers to the following questions.

  • When you were voted out of Singapore Idol, you cried on national TV. How did you pick yourself up? 6:18
  • You have been in the limelight since young. Has it changed you? How did you deal with fame and public scrutiny? 17:08
  • What was the biggest mistake you made while growing your influence? 22:41
  • We care a lot about what people think about us. How do we get shield ourselves from people’s opinions of us, especially the negative ones? 26:10
  • You mentioned many times in the media about how you were afflicted with self-doubt. How did you overcome it? 37:00
  • Have your looks ever prevented people from taking your talents and creations seriously? 42:32
  • For people listening, how can they live the best life ever? 1:01:50

If you want to keep in touch with Nat, you can reach him on Instagram @iamnatho

Read these books to become highly sought after in your own industry -> www.pickericsbrain.com

Thank you for listening to this episode of #HighlySoughtAfter! 

If you enjoyed this episode, please help me hit the ‘subscribe’ button if you’re listening on Apple Podcasts or hit the ‘follow’ button if you are listening on Spotify. 
 
I would also love to hear your biggest takeaway from this episode! Here’s how: take a screenshot of you listening to #HighlySoughtAfter and tag me on Instagram. My handle is @ericgoesglobal. This way, I can personally thank you!

Nat Ho:

Whoever controls the story, controls your life. If let's say you are-

Eric Feng:

Makes sense.

Nat Ho:

... relying on external validation, you are not in control of your life and it's scary. But if you are the one that controls your story, means you are empowered. You keep the power in your court, right? Then you decide what you want-

Eric Feng:

Hi, this is Eric here. And you're listening to #HighlySoughtAfter.

Our guest for today is a very well-known celebrity in Singapore. And his first brush with fame was actually when he was six years old, without him knowing. One day [inaudible 00:00:40] very well-known actress was doing a show at [inaudible 00:00:44]. He was there, six-year old boy enjoying the show. And his photo end up on national paper. So that was his first brush with fame. 

            His official brush with fame was actually with the inaugural Singapore Idol. And so if I say his name, you probably know who he is already. That whole show started his 14-year journey as an actor, as a model, as a singer. But what was really worth noting, is in 2013, he landed a contract with a Taiwanese agency. His song a year later broke into top 10 of many of the Taiwanese radio. And then he landed himself back in Singapore, yay, Singapore pride. He's in this very first Long Fong documentary, Long Fong Show called Tanglin. Which recently just ended. And he's none other than Mr. Nat Ho. Very illustrious career. Oh, my gosh. I'm struggling with your introduction.

Nat Ho:

Thank you.

Eric Feng:

Now, I have to mention something, though. Many people see you as an actor, performer, singer. But you guys need to know that he's also a budding entrepreneur. In today's interview, we're also going to talk about his business, his mindset, and everything about marketing and branding. All right, so stay with us on the show. Question number one.

Nat Ho:

Yes.

Eric Feng:

Seeing as you are a songwriter, as well.

Nat Ho:

Yup.

Eric Feng:

If you were to write an album right ... If you write a song about your entire life, what would the title be?

Nat Ho:

It would be unapologetic. 

Eric Feng:

Wait, what?

Nat Ho:

Unapologetic. 

Eric Feng:

But why?

Nat Ho:

Because I don't regret any of the things that I've done. I mean, the good and the bad. 

Eric Feng:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nat Ho:

Because I always think that there is things that I can learn from it. And also, sometimes I do things that people may or may not understand. And I don't really feel the need to explain it to them. Because as long as I know what my reason or my objective is, then I'm at peace with that. Unapologetic. 

Eric Feng:

What would be some key things that you have done that people kind of react to?

Nat Ho:

Key things that I've done that people-

Eric Feng:

Yeah, because you've had a very illustrious career. 14 years you had.

Nat Ho:

Yeah. Well, I guess. Yeah. 14 years is a very long time.

Eric Feng:

Yeah, it's longer ... it's more than a decade. 

Nat Ho:

Now I feel so old. 

Eric Feng:

No, no. You started young. 

Nat Ho:

Well, I think when I first repositioned myself from an actor to a singer, people took issue with that. I think sometimes ... I think most people don't really like change. Most people like to just put a label, pigeon hole you in something.

Eric Feng:

[crosstalk 00:03:23] Yeah, correct.

Nat Ho:

But I think what I want people to realize actually, is that we are all human beings, right? And we are in a sense, I think we are limitless. I think you should then just say, "Okay, this person is good at that, so he should only do this." I mean, if you feel in your heart that, okay, maybe you want to try something else, then by all means, do it. 

Eric Feng:

Yup. Yup.

Nat Ho:

Why do you need to limit yourself to one thing for the rest of your entire life? I mean, people say life is short, but at the same time, life is really long, as well.

Eric Feng:

True. Yeah, if you're not enjoying your life, life is long.

Nat Ho:

Yes. 

Eric Feng:

Yup, yup. If you enjoy it, then life is short. 

Nat Ho:

Exactly. And I think a lot of it has to do with like mindset, as well. So if you're of a growth mindset, if let's say you're always looking to be that one percent better, right? Then you want to get better, you want to improve. You want to try different things, take yourself out of the comfort zone, because that is where the biggest growth happens, when you're uncomfortable. I mean, even how when you go to the gym, right? How do you build muscle? You're creating micro tears.

Eric Feng:

Yeah.

Nat Ho:

In your muscle fibers. Right? And then it patches it up and then your-

Eric Feng:

It grows.

Nat Ho:

... muscle grows bigger. Right? It's the same thing with any person on growth. You have to go through a bit of discomfort. You have to go through a bit of pain, even, in order to grow and get to the next level.

Eric Feng:

But do you start off knowing that one day you're going to be a performer? 

Nat Ho:

Well, I've always liked music since young. My mom told me that when she was expecting me she used to play the guitar. 

Eric Feng:

Ah, Mom [inaudible 00:05:05] if you want your children to be like Nat Ho, start playing the guitar. 

Nat Ho:

And I actually started playing the piano at three. 

Eric Feng:

Whoa, you're a prodigy.

Nat Ho:

No, no. I mean, I started with lessons.

Eric Feng:

Started learning. Okay, okay.

Nat Ho:

Yeah. And I mean, what a lot of people don't really know is I actually have a grade eight in piano. Just that I think I'm really rusty right now. But I do have a grade eight in piano. And so, yeah. I mean, music has always been a part of my life. Interestingly, maybe from a young age, I kind of knew that people wouldn't really like it if I said I wanted to be a singer. Because in primary school, sometimes you talk to people, right? "Hey, what do you want to be when you grow up?"

Eric Feng:

Yeah. Yeah. Astronaut. [crosstalk 00:05:50]

Nat Ho:

Doctor, or whatever. Right? I really wanted to be a singer, but I didn't want people to laugh at me.

Eric Feng:

So what did you tell them?

Nat Ho:

So, I said, "Maybe a teacher of psychologist." I mean, it's still something that is respectable.

Eric Feng:

Oh, of course.

Nat Ho:

And practical. I think, because being a Singaporean, we are all very practical. Saying something, "I want to be a singer," just sounds so impractical. Right? So maybe from a young age, I kind of knew that. So that's why I didn't dare to say that I wanted to be a singer.

Eric Feng:

Good. And then what gave you the courage to sign up for the inaugural Singapore Idol?

Nat Ho:

Well, interestingly it's because I think the entertainment industry is a bit mysterious in the sense that it's not like you can just open the newspapers and find job postings.

Eric Feng:

I want to be a singer.

Nat Ho:

Yeah. Back in the day-

Eric Feng:

Yeah, [crosstalk 00:06:37]

Nat Ho:

... things, right?

Eric Feng:

Correct. 

Nat Ho:

Nobody knows how to get in, right? So it was all very mysterious to me. So I kind of just shoved the idea into the back of my head. But it was in, I think ... Was it the early 2000s?

Eric Feng:

Yup.

Nat Ho:

That's when American Idol was like huge, right?

Eric Feng:

Yeah, Simon Cowell.

Nat Ho:

Oh, so this is how you do it. 

Eric Feng:

Yup.

Nat Ho:

And so when Singapore Idol came around, I was like, "Okay, you know what, it's now or never." Right?

Eric Feng:

[crosstalk 00:07:05]. That's so amazing. What was your audition song? Do you remember?

Nat Ho:

Oh, my God. It was so bad. Okay. The thing is, I think what people don't know is because of copyright clearance, you can only choose from a certain list of songs.

Eric Feng:

Oh. Okay.

Nat Ho:

Yeah, so it wasn't my ideal choice of song, but of all the songs there, I think that was the only one I knew and it was, My Baby You, by Marc Anthony. Oh, my God. It was horrible.

Eric Feng:

You didn't even get a better song? You go there and they tell you what song to sing?

Nat Ho:

No, you do get a little bit of time to tell them in one or two days.

Eric Feng:

Oh, okay, okay.

Nat Ho:

And then you do it. And of course, at that time I was really young and inexperienced. And I was going up against people who had been singing for years.

Eric Feng:

Joanna Dong was in [inaudible 00:07:48], right?

Nat Ho:

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Feng:

She was the first one or so.

Nat Ho:

I think it's pretty interesting that among all the different Singapore Idols, the first one actually produced quite a lot of people that are still around today.

Eric Feng:

Exactly. These are like the true blue really legit performers.

Nat Ho:

People like Taufik Batisah, Olinda Cho, Joanna Dong, Daphne Khoo who is now known as Haneri. And I think she's found a bit of herself in the states, as well. 

Eric Feng:

Very nice. Okay.

Nat Ho:

Yeah, as a songwriter. Yeah.

Eric Feng:

That was where it all is. After this whole competition, then you were offered many, many contracts, right?

Nat Ho:

Not many, really.

Eric Feng:

[crosstalk 00:08:25].

Nat Ho:

There were some. I think what happened was at that time I was offered a modeling contract after the audition. I mean, after my performance in Singapore Idol. I only made it to top 30. 

Eric Feng:

Hey, it's no mean feat, okay?

Nat Ho:

Thank you.

Eric Feng:

Top 30, to be able to get in and have the balls to sing and express, be yourself.

Nat Ho:

Well, I think what was interesting is that my stay in the media industry didn't happen by accident, if it makes sense.

Eric Feng:

Yeah.

Nat Ho:

Because at that time, I was thinking, "Okay, so now I have a tiny foot in the door." Right? I have my 15 minutes of fame. "How do I turn that into a career?"

Eric Feng:

Yes.

Nat Ho:

Right? And honestly, I had no idea how I would do it, but I just put the intention of that, because it was something that I really wanted. And soon after, like I think in a matter of weeks, actually, a modeling agent called me up. 

            Because interestingly, around that time, I kind of wanted to earn a bit of pocket money. So before that, I had submitted some photos to modeling agents, different modeling agencies. Just because I needed pocket money. It wasn't even like I wanted to be famous, kind of thing. Right? Of course, at the time, some of the agencies will say, "Oh, yeah, [inaudible 00:09:54] pop photo shoots." I'm like, "I have no money. Okay. It's not happening." Right?

Eric Feng:

Yeah. 

Nat Ho:

But after Idol, one of those agencies called me back and they said, "Hey, look, I saw you on TV. I think you have a face for TV and commercials. Would you like to join us?" I'm like, "Yeah, sure, okay." 

Eric Feng:

Yeah, will you take photos for me?

Nat Ho:

Yeah. I actually landed my very first campaign was for a [inaudible 00:10:18] company. It was an island-wide campaign.

Eric Feng:

Got it all.

Nat Ho:

I landed that with a casual snapshot. It wasn't even a proper ... Right now, I don't even know how I landed a job, because it was a really horrible photo.

Eric Feng:

I've got to find it.

Nat Ho:

I was in rehearsal clothes.

Eric Feng:

Yes.

Nat Ho:

Right? And it was just taken using a regular compact camera.

Eric Feng:

Correct. [inaudible 00:10:43] island boy.

Nat Ho:

No, no, no. No, no, no. I said I landed a job with that photo.

Eric Feng:

With just that photo?

Nat Ho:

Because I said I have no money to do a proper pop photo shoot, right? It was really just a casual snapshot. And I'm like, "Wow." I think I'm really thankful to that client. And interestingly also, because for [inaudible 00:11:04] companies, normally every year they will want fresh, new faces. 

Eric Feng:

Yes.

Nat Ho:

They actually came back to look for me again the second year. Yeah. 

Eric Feng:

I mean, I'm very curious. Most of the people watching this probably do not ... they have not have access to your walk. So when you were there in Singapore Idol and then after that you did a bit of modeling, you probably have met a lot of other actors, right? 

Nat Ho:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). 

Eric Feng:

What was your first impression? I mean, you go in, was it like ... do you go like, "Wow, everybody's so glitzy." Or do you go like, "Ha, okay. It's not as amazing as I thought it was." What went on your mind when you were there [inaudible 00:11:42]?

Nat Ho:

Strangely, I have never ... I don't think I have been very impressed with fame. It sounds so weird.

Eric Feng:

Yeah, but tell us what you mean. Yeah.

Nat Ho:

It sounds so weird, but I think I was in a mindset where I just wanted to learn and absorb everything. 

Eric Feng:

A wonderful mindset.

Nat Ho:

I wanted to know how things worked. 

Eric Feng:

Oh, okay.

Nat Ho:

Some of these artists and all that, I'm like ... I mean, I would talk to them. I think a lot of the veteran artists in Singapore are really generous. If you asked them nicely, they are more than happy to share their experience with you and all that. And I did learn a lot from a lot of them. They are very generous with their time and with their wisdom. I think I was just trying to absorb as much as I could.

Eric Feng:

Amazing, like a sponge.

Nat Ho:

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Feng:

Did it teach you life lessons? [inaudible 00:12:33]. Is it everything about about technical, acting, singing?

Nat Ho:

No, I mean ... yeah. I think life lessons. Because when it comes to, say, acting for [inaudible 00:12:45], it is an art, right?

Eric Feng:

Yeah.

Nat Ho:

It's not just about technique. Of course, some things are technique. But at the end of the day, you are really telling a story. And one piece of advice that was given to me was, "Read a lot." 

Eric Feng:

Okay.

Nat Ho:

Read a lot. Right? Because, I mean, not everybody's life is very [inaudible 00:13:09].

Eric Feng:

Very sad.

Nat Ho:

Yeah, you know?

Eric Feng:

[crosstalk 00:13:11] Korean drama, all the [inaudible 00:13:13].

Nat Ho:

And I mean, of course, I do think acting ... I do think many people become better actors as they become older and they experience more life. 

Eric Feng:

Yes.

Nat Ho:

When you're in your early 20s, I mean, not everybody has a very sad background.

Eric Feng:

Yeah, exactly. 

Nat Ho:

And even then or so, the things that you experience maybe is limited to a certain character that you might need to portray. I think it's important to read a lot. And talk to different people, find out their stories and all that. I think that is a valuable lesson that I learned from there. And it also helped me become a better person. It helped me empathize better with people. Sometimes people act out in certain ways.

Eric Feng:

Correct.

Nat Ho:

And it's so easy to just be reactionary to that. But I think as an actor, a lot of times I'm kind of asking, "Okay, what is the process? Why is this person acting out this way?" And that is actually exercising my empathy muscle. 

Eric Feng:

Yup. [inaudible 00:14:17]. Yeah.

Nat Ho:

Yeah.

Eric Feng:

So that was acting, right? So you did modeling, then you did acting. And then you went into singing.

Nat Ho:

Yeah.

Eric Feng:

But that was your first love, right? Because you said that singing was fun.

Nat Ho:

Yeah, it was my first love.

Eric Feng:

How did you stumble on singing, then?

Nat Ho:

I didn't really stumble onto singing. I think in ... I think after ... Obviously, singing didn't happen straight away for me.

Eric Feng:

Yeah, exactly, yeah. Correct.

Nat Ho:

From Singapore Idol. But because back of my mind I had the idea of, "Okay, how do I extend my stay in entertainment industry?" I said, "Okay, fine. When an opportunity comes, I will just take it and make a detour." I mean, many roads lead to Rome.

Eric Feng:

Yes. 

Nat Ho:

But the road doesn't necessarily have to be like a completely straight and smooth road. Sometimes it's like a winding road. 

Eric Feng:

Correct.

Nat Ho:

And there will be some people that say, "Oh, but I'm taking so long to get to my destination." But at the same time, if, let's say, you come from a mindset whereby, "Okay, yeah. I'm taking the long route or the scenic route. But there's other things I can see there, there's other things I can learn, there's other people I can meet along the way." And you know what? If you go in with an open mind, you ... I've found that I have benefited so much more from that. 

Eric Feng:

So you enjoyed the process of-

Nat Ho:

Yeah, enjoy the process. Divorce the outcome and marry the process.

Eric Feng:

Say that one more time, that is very good. [crosstalk 00:15:42]

Nat Ho:

[crosstalk 00:15:44] on me. 

Eric Feng:

Of course, it feels very comfortable. 

Nat Ho:

It was from a mentor. So basically divorce the outcome.

Eric Feng:

Divorce the outcome.

Nat Ho:

And marry the process. 

Eric Feng:

Love it. That was you, right? That was what you did?

Nat Ho:

Yeah. Because too many people, they are so obsessed with wanting the results, getting to the end, that they kind of miss the forest for the trees. And there are many valuable things that you can learn from even taking a detour. I mean, of course, I wouldn't say detour until you lose your way. 

Eric Feng:

Yes. [crosstalk 00:16:17]

Nat Ho:

But there are also cases where you take a detour and you realize, "Hey, actually, I think I have a greater calling in this way." And that's okay, as well.

Eric Feng:

Yup.

Nat Ho:

That's the beauty of life. I mean, as long as you're open to it and you just go with the flow, you never know where you might end up. And whether it's right for you or not right for you, only you know. I think a lot of people are too concerned with what other people think of them. Or society's idea of success or whatever. And it stresses them out. And then they try to reach for that and then they don't feel fulfilled. And then 10, 20 years later, they just become really bitter, angry people. 

Eric Feng:

Because Nat, I mean, you've been in this career long enough. And I was just sticking out for a drink just now, and grab a drink, and everyone was eye-balling you. And I mean, obviously, people know you. Okay. They know you. Has fame changed you?

Nat Ho:

Well, I'll be lying to say if it didn't. But I think it puts things into perspective for me. You need to ... For me, I'm very clear on my objectives of fame. There are some people that love fame for the sake of fame.

Eric Feng:

Fame, yeah.

Nat Ho:

Right? I'm not one of those people. I mean, honestly, I think fame can be inconvenient sometimes. There's no denying that there are perks from that. 

Eric Feng:

Yes.

Nat Ho:

But I think my approach is, I don't go somewhere expecting something just because I'm famous or whatever. I mean, if it happens-

Eric Feng:

You enjoy it.

Nat Ho:

... I'd be grateful for it. 

Eric Feng:

Yeah.

Nat Ho:

Yeah, but if I go somewhere ... If I have to queue, I will queue. If I'm offered to jump the queue or something if maybe a bouncer or whoever recognizes me, okay. And then they want to ... I just say thank you and be grateful for it. But I don't go like, "Do you know who I am?" 

Eric Feng:

[crosstalk 00:18:13]

Nat Ho:

I have friends who say, "Oh, why don't you just use ... " I'm like, "Guys, come on. Seriously." That's like the number one way to become annoying.

Eric Feng:

But you say that, it gives you perspective, right?

Nat Ho:

It gives me perspective, because I mean, ultimately, I'm in a people business. 

Eric Feng:

Yes.

Nat Ho:

Right? I'm nice, but I'm not stupid. I know when people want to know me for me or when people want to get something out of me. Sometimes I let them get away with it. But that doesn't mean I'm not aware of it. 

Eric Feng:

Wow. So you become all discerning.

Nat Ho:

More discerning, yeah. I think my ... meter's higher, as well. 

Eric Feng:

Okay.

Nat Ho:

Especially the older I get. The less patience I have for ... I'm somebody who if I decide I want to do something, I go and I do it.

Eric Feng:

So what's more important to you then? What keeps you on this process? Because we talk about enjoying the process, yes, but what is it about a process that you enjoy?

Nat Ho:

I enjoy creating. 

Eric Feng:

Okay.

Nat Ho:

I enjoy creating. That's like the creative process. I enjoy taking an idea-

Eric Feng:

Yes.

Nat Ho:

Like it's like really something from the ether.

Eric Feng:

Okay.

Nat Ho:

And manifesting it into physical reality. 

Eric Feng:

Yeah.

Nat Ho:

I still remember the very first music video that I did. 

Eric Feng:

Was it Unleashed?

Nat Ho:

Yeah. 

Eric Feng:

I love it. You guys watch it. We'll play some of it later. But yeah, tell us everything about it, behind the scenes.

Nat Ho:

That was in 2012. The moment when I stepped into the studio and everybody was there. I mean, most of them were my friends I had worked with before.

Eric Feng:

Yes.

Nat Ho:

They came on board, the studio was being set up and everybody was just busy in the studio. And I'm like, "Oh, my God." These 30-odd people were all there for me.

Eric Feng:

Whoa.

Nat Ho:

It's just such a-

Eric Feng:

[crosstalk 00:20:08] goosebumps.

Nat Ho:

Yeah. It was a very humbling moment. 

Eric Feng:

Okay.

Nat Ho:

Because it was a moment where I realized that these are people who believe in my vision.

Eric Feng:

Yes.

Nat Ho:

And were willing to put aside their time and their resources to do this with me and for me. And that is something that to this day I will never forget. Yeah.

Eric Feng:

Well, tell us more about that. What was Unleashed about? I mean, I always feel that every song that you create always kind of communicated aspect of your life, right?

Nat Ho:

Yup, for sure.

Eric Feng:

So what does Unleashed mean to you back then when you wrote that song?

Nat Ho:

Well, I think the Nat Ho story has always been about pursuing your dreams and stuff. Because I strongly believe that you need to resonate with your highest purpose if you want to be happy.

Eric Feng:

Let's repeat that. You need to resonate with your highest purpose-

Nat Ho:

Highest purpose.

Eric Feng:

... if you want to be-

Nat Ho:

If you want to be happy. A lot of people chase happiness. But happiness is not in the material things. It's in the intrinsic things. It's in the non-material things. It's about meaning. It's about purpose. And I think a lot of people do what society tells them to do. They do what their parents tell them to do. They do everything by the book. So, by definition, they are good people. Right?

Eric Feng:

Yup.

Nat Ho:

Because I did everything the way that the world told-

Eric Feng:

Compliant.

Nat Ho:

Yeah. Yeah. 

Eric Feng:

[crosstalk 00:21:40]

Nat Ho:

But why do they end up not happy? Yeah. They end up not happy because maybe for some reason ... Especially Asian parents. Sometimes they can be really tiger parents or whatever. "You know, you need to go out and become a doctor."

Eric Feng:

Doctor or lawyer.

Nat Ho:

I mean, some people want to be doctors and that's okay. But maybe what if you want to be ... I don't know, an artist or something? But then-

Eric Feng:

I want to be a zookeeper.

Nat Ho:

Yeah. Yeah. But then, oh, there's no money in zoo keeping. So go and be a doctor. So instead be a doctor. And then each time you see an animal, you feel very sad. You know what I mean.

Eric Feng:

Yeah. But do you think it's happening less right now? 

Nat Ho:

Well, I think-

Eric Feng:

More courage to go after your dreams.

Nat Ho:

I do think that the beauty of the internet is that it has just made everything so accessible. You can basically learn anything you want, anywhere in the world. And let's say you want to share that thing, you can have a platform to do that.

Eric Feng:

But ask you something. This is going to probably not make me very popular. Because we pursue something because we enjoy it, we are passionate about it. It's our dream. But if we're not good at it how-

Nat Ho:

Well, again-

Eric Feng:

Would you continue pursuing it?

Nat Ho:

The thing is, how can you be good at something if you are new to it? You become good only after many, many years of trial and error.

Eric Feng:

Yeah. I think they all say 10,000 hours. 

Nat Ho:

Yeah. I mean, like mastery does not take one hour. There's a reason why it's called mastery. I mean, even you can be a prodigy, but if you do not put any time into it, you are never going to be at the level compared to somebody who has put in 10,000 hours. 

Eric Feng:

Wow. Could you say that anybody who's watching this right now who has a dream of acting, singing, writing, expressing themselves, but they are not good at it right now, but if they are passionate, they enjoy it, should continue pursuing it?

Nat Ho:

Of course. But I think the thing with chasing dreams is I think you need to be a responsible dreamer. I think a lot of people are like dreamers. It's just like castle in the sky kind of thing.

Eric Feng:

Yes. [crosstalk 00:23:42] on the ground.

Nat Ho:

But yeah, I think that's also the reality that you need to look out for. You need to understand that with a lot of things ... I mean, let's say entertainment business, quote, unquote. Okay. Too many people focus on the entertainment. They focus on the networking this and that. But forget it's also a business. I think you need to understand that it's a business and how would you do it as a business? I mean, for myself. Yeah, I'm an artist, I'm a singer. Whatever, whatever. But at the end of the day, what I'm really selling is the Nat Ho product. And that whole brand, right? And it is important to realize this distinction. And then, the way you do things is going to be different. There's a strategy to it.

Eric Feng:

Let me break it down. I mean, okay, about personal branding. Right?

Nat Ho:

Yup.

Eric Feng:

First of all, we need to define for ourself what our brand is all about.

Nat Ho:

Yeah. I think you need to, personally, define your objective. What you want out of that. And then you-

Eric Feng:

Out of what? Out of the brand or out of just-

Nat Ho:

Out of whatever it is you want to do. Right? You define your objective, and then you kind of reverse engineer.

Eric Feng:

So what was your objective?

Nat Ho:

My objective was to become a singer. Yeah.

Eric Feng:

So that was the goal? You wanted to be a star?

Nat Ho:

Well, okay. That was one of the objectives.

Eric Feng:

Yeah.

Nat Ho:

But I think what really is my objective is I want to be creating things. And being able to share those creative things. 

Eric Feng:

And it just happened that the things that you create comes in a form of [inaudible 00:25:13] and rhythm, right? That's songs?

Nat Ho:

Yeah. Or even telling a story. Telling a story is something that has been around since ancient men. Right? That's how legends and ... or even learning. Or like history. It's all through story telling.

Eric Feng:

Stories. 

Nat Ho:

Yeah. And that's how people learn, as well. Yeah. To learn like concepts and things. It's all through story telling.

Eric Feng:

I hear you. Step number one is first ask yourself, what do we want out of this life?

Nat Ho:

Yup.

Eric Feng:

Right. And in your case, is you want to create.

Nat Ho:

Yeah.

Eric Feng:

Okay. So that's step one. And step two, how do we make it happen? Because we want to, but maybe the world doesn't allow us to do it, right?

Nat Ho:

The world.

Eric Feng:

Well, there you go. Maybe I should say that, too. [inaudible 00:25:57] not giving us, right?

Nat Ho:

Right. 

Eric Feng:

But how do we have ... You really have a lot of balls when you do that. Like when you did Unleashed, you did all your songs, "This is me," right? You're saying, "This is my version of my song. This is what I do." 

Nat Ho:

Yeah.

Eric Feng:

Obviously, you have your fans support you no matter what. But you also do get your critics and haters.

Nat Ho:

Yeah.

Eric Feng:

How do you deal with them?

Nat Ho:

Of course, when I was in my 20s, it wasn't so easy to deal with that. Because I was still figuring things out for myself. Right? And sometimes you're still figuring out who you are, what you're good at, or whatever. It is a process, right?

Eric Feng:

Yes.

Nat Ho:

But now I'm in my 30s. And I've been through some ... as well. But I'm thankful for that. Because it makes me more clear on who I am as a person, what I know I can do. When you are so sure of yourself, whatever people say really doesn't matter. And you realize that you ... "I don't need to explain anything to them as long as I know what my objective is and whether I am able to achieve or work towards that."

Eric Feng:

But it took you a while to get there, right?

Nat Ho:

Of course it took me a while to get there.

Eric Feng:

What was 20s like for you? What was the theme for you in your 20s? Finding yourself? 

Nat Ho:

Not so much finding myself. I think trying different things still is ... It's very aspirational. But it's also learning to deal with, say, critics for example. And I think the easiest ... The best way to put everything into perspective is to look at things from a point of value. Right? Like what value are you bringing to the world? And I think in this world, everybody has a mindset of, "Okay, what's in it for me?" 

Eric Feng:

Yeah. 

Nat Ho:

Right? But if everybody asking what's in it for me, then who's giving?

Eric Feng:

Who's giving. Yeah. 

Nat Ho:

Who's giving? And then how do people perceive value? In order to let people perceive you as having something of value to contribute or to say or whatever, you need to first give that value. Right? And of course, there are going to be people who appreciate that value. And there are going to be people who don't appreciate that value. But ultimately, like I said, if you resonate with your highest purpose, there will be people who are also aspirational and that is going to resonate with them. And at the same time, from a point of value, okay, say criticisms rightS?

Eric Feng:

Yeah. 

Nat Ho:

If I find I have something valuable I can learn from the criticism, I will take that upon myself. But at the same time, there's some criticisms which is just not constructive at all and does not give me any value. 

Eric Feng:

Or it gets very personal.

Nat Ho:

Yeah, or it gets very personal. But ironically, these people don't even know me personally. Why should I let somebody I don't know stop me from doing the things that I want to do? Does your criticism help me pay my bills? What value is your opinion giving to me?

Eric Feng:

Fantastic. Let me see if I can crystallize it. What you're saying is that first of all, I think we need to know our value to the world. Right? What is it that we want to give to the world?

Nat Ho:

I don't know. I think, first of all, you need to know what value you have to yourself.

Eric Feng:

What you give to yourself?

Nat Ho:

Yeah. What value do you want to create for yourself?

Eric Feng:

Nice, okay.

Nat Ho:

And then, it always starts from self and then outwards to the world. Because if you are not fulfilled inside, how can you give to the world?

Eric Feng:

Well, see, and then if not, you'll be subjected to everybody's words and validation, right?

Nat Ho:

Yeah. Yeah. Because you don't know who you are.

Eric Feng:

Would you say it's about first having a relationship with yourself?

Nat Ho:

Yes. Yes. And it's very important. And it's something that I learned from traveling.

Eric Feng:

Okay. How do you link that [crosstalk 00:29:45]?

Nat Ho:

As I became older and have a bit more financial spending power.

Eric Feng:

Capacity.

Nat Ho:

Capacity, yeah. I decided to do travel. Sometime even solo travel. And it's great, because if let's say you traveled in a tour group or with friends and all that, you're still with people, right?

Eric Feng:

Yes. 

Nat Ho:

You don't actually have that space to get to know yourself. Does that make sense?

Eric Feng:

Totally. Totally makes sense. 

Nat Ho:

Yeah.

Eric Feng:

[inaudible 00:30:10], we don't really have a chance to get to know ourselves, right?

Nat Ho:

Yeah. Yeah. 

Eric Feng:

[crosstalk 00:30:13] myself.

Nat Ho:

But when you travel on your own, then you can only depend on yourself.

Eric Feng:

Yes.

Nat Ho:

You only have yourself for company. And at the same time, because when you're in a foreign place, you have no other person to-

Eric Feng:

Get help.

Nat Ho:

Then you become more open to talking to strangers and stuff. Of course, you still need to be sensible when you do that.

Eric Feng:

Yes. 

Nat Ho:

But sometimes what the stories that we build in our head, is more scary than the reality out there. And yeah, I mean, there's a lot of bad stuff that's going on in the world, but there's still a lot of good stuff, despite the bad stuff. I'm hoping that people can learn to focus on that. 

Eric Feng:

Hey, this is Eric here, just dropping in to check in on you. Are you getting value so far from this interview? Because if you are, I'm very happy for you and I'm really curious to know what are some of the key takeaways. After the interview, go to social media, screenshot your learnings, and tag me. Right? So that we can connect. Okay, okay, I'm going to leave you to listen to the rest of the interview, enjoy.

            So, go back to the traveling. How did the traveling help you to have a closer relationship with yourself?

Nat Ho:

I think it was about broadening the mind. And again, it's the idea of growth, right? Because if you're in the same place that you are super comfortable with, you have your entire support system, that's your whole world. That's your whole world. And it's really [inaudible 00:31:45] in the well.

Eric Feng:

[inaudible 00:31:45] in the well. Yeah.

Nat Ho:

Kind of situation. But when you put yourself out there, you realize, "Hey, there's this whole other massive world that is outside of what I'm familiar with."

Eric Feng:

Yes.

Nat Ho:

And then that's where you grow and you learn. I mean, just like how ... You can grow a lemon tree in a pot and it will still have lemons. But it's always going to be tiny. 

Eric Feng:

Yeah, nice.

Nat Ho:

So if you want the tree to grow bigger, you have to put it in a bigger pot. Same thing goes for a fish. Right? You want a fish to grow bigger, you cannot keep it in the tiny bowl.

Eric Feng:

Yup. Put it in a bigger tank.

Nat Ho:

You need to put it in a bigger pond and all that. And then that's how big the fish will grow. 

Eric Feng:

I guess traveling allows you to see more on that? To discover yourself and find more of yourself.

Nat Ho:

Yeah. Discover yourself in relation to the entire world. And learn more things and see what value you can give to the world, as well. 

Eric Feng:

I see. Is that also how ... I saw you discovered that you love creating things for people. You love sharing things, expressing.

Nat Ho:

Yeah. I love creating. Because despite some of the criticisms, whatever. But it has also helped a lot of people. I mean, there are people that say, "Thanks for doing this, you've inspired me." And I'm like, "Oh. How did I inspire you?" I mean, at that time, I was just ... I'm just doing things that I find fun, right?

Eric Feng:

Yes.

Nat Ho:

But by doing something that I find fun, I can create value and inspire people. Sure, sign me up.

Eric Feng:

Yeah.

Nat Ho:

Yeah, you know. In that sense, it makes me feel like, "Okay, I am actually on the right track." 

Eric Feng:

I'm learning a lot from you. I'm learning about looking inwards. We're [inaudible 00:33:27]. We're building our brand we always thought of. Because branding is all about increasing our visibility and popularity in the world. So we tend to be very outward facing. It seems like it's inward facing-

Nat Ho:

Well, that is actually on a very cerebral level. 

Eric Feng:

Oh, this here?

Nat Ho:

Yeah. Like what you just said.

Eric Feng:

Okay, yeah.

Nat Ho:

About the branding and marketing thing. And it's interesting, because I was listening to a podcast recently. And I think the guy said something to the effect of like, "The aim of every business is not to build profit." I'm like, "What?"

Eric Feng:

What? Okay, [inaudible 00:33:58]. I'm curious of part two of the sentence.

Nat Ho:

Not to build profit. So he said the aim of every business is personal growth. So whether you have a successful business or whether your business failed, did you grow from it? And ironically, when you focus on personal devolvement, personal growth, your business will eventually grow. That's why, I mean, if you look at all the CEOs, when they do their seminars and speeches and all that, nobody really talks about specifics on how to grow the business. A lot of them are talking about concepts, a lot of them are focusing on personal development [crosstalk 00:34:38].

Eric Feng:

Yes. This is just that. Because you are a commonality to everything that you do.

Nat Ho:

Exactly. And the thing is, if let's say you want to teach tactics and technique or whatever, it could be specific to only a very, very niche market. Maybe if the product changes or if the-

Eric Feng:

The market conjures down.

Nat Ho:

The market changes, right? Then it may not be applicable, as well. It's not a one-size fits all. But if you focus on personal development, it's a concept right? It's a concept. So whichever business you do, whichever product you do, wherever you are, these are universal concepts that you can then translate into your business and produce results from that. And I think what a lot of people don't realize is that business is ultimately about people, right?

Eric Feng:

Yup. 

Nat Ho:

People don't buy products. People buy people. Does that make sense?

Eric Feng:

Yeah, totally. I saw that, yeah. Yeah.

Nat Ho:

If you have two products, product A, product B, price-wise, same, function is the same, okay, similar [inaudible 00:35:32] but you know the person who owns product A or your friends are the sales person from product A, you will buy product A. 

Eric Feng:

Correct.

Nat Ho:

Because it's somebody I'm familiar and I'm comfortable with. 

Eric Feng:

Correct. 

Nat Ho:

Or likewise, if you have a bad experience with that person, you might hate the product, even though the product did nothing to you. And then you're going to buy-

Eric Feng:

Because by virtue of association.

Nat Ho:

Exactly. That's why when you focus on personal development, you have a better relationship with people and your place in the world and everything. And yeah, it just creates a really positive ripple effect outwards.

Eric Feng:

And it makes you feel more charismatic and attractive. 

Nat Ho:

Yeah, kind of. Because then you're like vibrating at the higher-

Eric Feng:

Higher frequency.

Nat Ho:

... higher frequency. Yeah.

Eric Feng:

Nice. I hear a lot of ... I mean, that's a part of you that we do not know, right? So many of you, we see the glitzy side of you. But this is a Nat that I realize is very grounded and into growth. You started off by saying growth mindset. 

Nat Ho:

Yeah. 

Eric Feng:

And personal development. And if we record today's transcript, there were a number of times you used the word learn. And then open-minded a lot, you know.

Nat Ho:

Oh, really.

Eric Feng:

Yeah. That's you. And that's what allow you to be able to navigate through all these complexities, right? That you become ... I won't say you are immune. But I'll say that you are not [inaudible 00:36:47].

Nat Ho:

A lot more fortified. 

Eric Feng:

Yeah. Oh, I love that word. Yeah, more fortified to criticism, because that's not your highest value. Your highest value is not seeking validation.

Nat Ho:

No.

Eric Feng:

Your highest value is seeking education.

Nat Ho:

And actually, that is my worry with social media and everything. I mean, even the best people are not immune to it. I mean, I have a lot of friends who are not even depending on social media for their work. Or for their business or whatever. But you learn ... they will think, "Oh, so and so didn't like my photo that I ... " Like, is that really a thing?

Eric Feng:

Yeah, people like that.

Nat Ho:

There are people like that. And some of them are dear friends that I know. 

Eric Feng:

What advice do you give them?

Nat Ho:

No. And it sucks. It really sucks. Because I'm hoping that they realize there's so much more to this world than social media. Social media, at the end of the day, it's like money. It's a tool. A lot of people think that, oh, money is the root of all evil. Or the love of money is the real evil. But that is really more a reflection of who you are and your values as a person. To me, money is a form of energy. Everything around us is energy, right?

Eric Feng:

Yeah. I agree, 100%.

Nat Ho:

I mean, the primary school textbook definition of energy is matter that can neither be converted nor created. That can neither be created nor destroyed.

Eric Feng:

Yes, sir.

Nat Ho:

Or converted from one falter.

Eric Feng:

One falter [crosstalk 00:38:09]. Is this guy very brainy, too. 

Nat Ho:

When you put all of that in perspective, things like money and all that, right. I mean, I have had my monk moments, where I have lost everything, right? At the end of ... when I finished paying off everything, I did finally find a way with my own savings. 

Eric Feng:

Oh, my God.

Nat Ho:

Right. There was one day I still remember, I was with one of my friends. And I went to draw money from the ATM and then I started laughing at the ATM. She's like, "Why?" I'm like, "I only have $16." So it's like below the minimum.

Eric Feng:

[crosstalk 00:38:50].

Nat Ho:

"I only have $16 to my entire name. Can I borrow like some money from you so that I can take out money?"

Eric Feng:

Oh, my God. 

Nat Ho:

Yeah. But I think like what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Right?

Eric Feng:

Yeah, but you can even laugh about it. 

Nat Ho:

Yeah, I mean, what, I can either laugh or I can cry.

Eric Feng:

And you chose to laugh about it.

Nat Ho:

Yeah. I mean, it is funny [inaudible 00:39:14]. It's not like I was dying. It wasn't a life or death situation. 

Eric Feng:

Correct.

Nat Ho:

But I think you just need to put things into perspective. And a lot ... I think it was [inaudible 00:39:29] this whole thing about that monk moment or something.

Eric Feng:

Yeah, I told-

Nat Ho:

When you're at your monk moment, you have nothing left to lose. 

Eric Feng:

Yes. 

Nat Ho:

That's when you actually become powerful. 

Eric Feng:

Yup, because the only way is up. Right?

Nat Ho:

Yeah, the only way is up. I mean, my mom used to tell me, "Do you want to be a victim or do you want to be a victor?" Yeah. The same situation can happen to two different people, but they can have two different outcomes, purely because of how they chose to react to the situation.

Eric Feng:

Absolutely. Going back to your friends and my friends, and even myself, we do get affected by the likes, the follows. I mean, humans are humans, right? You've been through it, as well. What do you have to say to them? How can you help them see the bigger picture that it's not that important? What would you say to them?

Nat Ho:

I think firstly, you need to again look within and know yourself.

Eric Feng:

Okay.

Nat Ho:

Know yourself. Know what value you bring to the world, know who you are as a person, know what you can or cannot do. Because when you are very sure about that, then you don't need external validation. For example, when I went to Taiwan.

Eric Feng:

Yes.

Nat Ho:

There were people that said, "Okay, before that you had a career in entertainment and everything." And then you go to Taiwan, you start from scratch, because nobody knows me there. I started as a trainee. I did one whole year of purely training. No nothing. Right? No fame.

Eric Feng:

Yeah. [crosstalk 00:40:51]

Nat Ho:

No whatever. And they were like, "How do you do that?" [inaudible 00:40:54] [crosstalk 00:40:56] in balance. Right? And I'm like, "No. I feel great." And they're like, "Why?" I said, "Well, in Singapore, because people expect me to be perfect all the time, but I'm somebody who loves to learn, right? And when you learn you're bound to make mistakes.

Eric Feng:

Yes.

Nat Ho:

But people are just going to see the process first. And expect perfection. And then maybe they might stumble or [crosstalk 00:41:21] on social media and say, "Oh, yeah, [inaudible 00:41:23]." Or whatever. But, I mean, I am learning, as well. I'm not a perfect human. Right?

Eric Feng:

Yeah.

Nat Ho:

And people make mistakes when they learn.

Eric Feng:

Oh, absolutely.

Nat Ho:

I think in Taiwan it was good, because I had all this space to make mistakes. All the space to learn and improve. And I grew a lot from there. It was actually really refreshing for me. It was a breath of fresh air. And I felt it was something that I sorely needed in terms of my creativity and all that. And also, I think at that point in time, I had a secret doubt about myself. Because before that, when I became an artist, I was in my 20s. 

Eric Feng:

Yeah, you were doing very well. 

Nat Ho:

I had this nibbling thought at the back of my head that, "Okay, maybe I just got lucky." I told myself, if I can go to Taiwan, start from scratch, and still make something out of it-

Eric Feng:

That is you.

Nat Ho:

... then I have what it take. I have the substance."

Eric Feng:

And you did. Because the year later your song broke the records.

Nat Ho:

And I did. And I did. That was actually ... It was a process that was very empowering for me. When I came back, people look at me differently. And because that's when the confidence actually came from within rather than an external validation. And that was the start of me becoming bulletproof.

Eric Feng:

Understood. So it's about creating certainty in your life where you're able to produce a certain result of your own capabilities.

Nat Ho:

Yeah. And testing that. 

Eric Feng:

And yeah, and testing that.

Nat Ho:

Yeah. 

Eric Feng:

Actually, also being in a safe space where you can make mistakes.

Nat Ho:

Yup.

Eric Feng:

It's just unfair for you. I guess celebrity, people tend to put you at a higher level of-

Nat Ho:

But, I mean-

Eric Feng:

Well, you're human beings-

Nat Ho:

But you can't blame them, as well. Because that is our job. 

Eric Feng:

Because I [inaudible 00:43:10]. Right?

Nat Ho:

That is our job, as well. 

Eric Feng:

Where today do you usually have space for making mistakes?

Nat Ho:

Well, I do make mistakes. But you don't have to announce them. 

Eric Feng:

So you have your little experiment room where you make all the mistakes, and then you showcase them on Facebook.

Nat Ho:

Yeah, that is like my mad scientist lab and all that. But I mean ... Well, having said that, also, I'm not afraid to make mistakes in front of people. I think right now in my 30s, it's like if I make mistakes in front of somebody, I know how to recover. I know how to laugh about it. 

Eric Feng:

Yes.

Nat Ho:

Because I'm self buoyant. 

Eric Feng:

Certainty of who you are.

Nat Ho:

Yeah. 

Eric Feng:

[crosstalk 00:43:45]

Nat Ho:

Again, it comes back to that. That's why I think it's really, really important to do a lot of inner work. Once you do that, you don't really need this external validation. And you become very, very driven. Yeah. 

Eric Feng:

Okay, good. So you know what it means to you? 

Nat Ho:

Like personal development. 

Eric Feng:

Improving yourself. 

Nat Ho:

Improving yourself. 

Eric Feng:

Learning your strength, your values.

Nat Ho:

Yeah, yeah.

Eric Feng:

And how you want to contribute to the world.

Nat Ho:

Yeah. And knowing what you want to do. 

Eric Feng:

And setting your own rules.

Nat Ho:

Yeah. And just focusing on that. Yeah. Because another thing I learned recently is also whoever controls the story controls your life. 

Eric Feng:

Say that again? Whoever ...

Nat Ho:

Whoever controls the story, controls your life. 

Eric Feng:

Okay. 

Nat Ho:

So if let's say you are relying-

Eric Feng:

Makes sense.

Nat Ho:

... on external validation-

Eric Feng:

To tell the story.

Nat Ho:

Yeah. Then you are not in control of your life. And it's scary. But if you are the one that controls your story, means you are empowered. You keep the power in your court. Right? Then you decide what you want to do with your life.

Eric Feng:

And can I say that controlling your story means you decide what kind of life you want to live.

Nat Ho:

Yes. Yes. So many people-

Eric Feng:

What kind of [crosstalk 00:44:53] you want to stand for. 

Nat Ho:

... give up their power. Why do you do that? You're a human being. You are like powerful.

Eric Feng:

How do we give up our power? Give me an instance of how we gave up our power?

Nat Ho:

We give up our power by looking for external validation. 

Eric Feng:

Good point.

Nat Ho:

We give up our power by thinking, "Okay, this thing happened to me. I'm a victim." 

Eric Feng:

Oh, nice one.

Nat Ho:

Yeah.

Eric Feng:

Or relying on people. Like you said, rely on people to validate us and [crosstalk 00:45:18].

Nat Ho:

Yeah. I mean, another thing I like to tell people is we cannot control the cards that life deals us. 

Eric Feng:

True.

Nat Ho:

But we can control how we want to play those cards. So there are people that are born with this. They was born [inaudible 00:45:35]. They come with a good family background and all that. But their life amounts to nothing, because they end up finding meaning in, I don't know, drugs, sex, rock and roll, or whatever.

Eric Feng:

Yeah. 

Nat Ho:

Right?

Eric Feng:

It's funny how you use rock and roll together with sex and drugs.

Nat Ho:

And then there are people that are born with nothing. Maybe like horrible background, abusive parents, whatever. But yet, they're able to make something of their life. What is your excuse?

Eric Feng:

Exactly. 

Nat Ho:

What is your excuse?

Eric Feng:

Exactly. Wow. Wow. It's the story you tell yourself.

Nat Ho:

Yeah.

Eric Feng:

If you keep telling a victim story, like the world owes me things and that's how I [crosstalk 00:46:10]

Nat Ho:

Yes. I mean, the world was here, but it owes you nothing. I have no patience for people who are entitled. Even if you're famous. Even if you're not famous. Even if you're poor or whatever. You think people should donate stuff to you. I worked for every single thing. You create your own luck.

Eric Feng:

You know, I read this quote. You've heard of Spiderman?

Nat Ho:

Yeah.

Eric Feng:

Uncle Ben gives Spiderman advice which is, "With great power comes great responsibility."

Nat Ho:

Yeah.

Eric Feng:

This author reversed it. It said, "With great responsibility comes great power." 

Nat Ho:

Actually, I think it's-

Eric Feng:

When you start to control your response to things, boom. Like what you said, you become powerful. And when you become powerful, we become attractive, because people want that kind of power and they don't have it. So they sit and they rest on yours as they listen to your music. They watch how you live your life. And then they do the same thing. 

Nat Ho:

I liked what that author did.

Eric Feng:

Yeah, the switch thing, right.

Nat Ho:

Just boom.

Eric Feng:

This quote, blow my mind.

Nat Ho:

Yeah. That was cool.

Eric Feng:

Let's talk a little bit about tactics. I mean, I think we learn so much about you, your Nat Ho story. It's about learning to have relationship with yourself and being open to learning. And as you learn, you discover more of yourself, you can put it together. And you tell your own story. I thought that was my biggest takeaway today. I decide what kind of story I want to tell. I decide what kind of values I want to put up there and what I stand for. If you like it, join me. If you don't like it, I'm sorry, it's okay. 

Nat Ho:

Yeah.

Eric Feng:

And then also, you don't need validation. 

Nat Ho:

Yeah.

Eric Feng:

It's the biggest thing.

Nat Ho:

I mean, it is madness to persuade somebody to love you. 

Eric Feng:

Oh, my heaven's alive. 

Nat Ho:

Yeah. I mean, if somebody doesn't love you, why are you wasting all your time and energy on this person? Just say, "Thank you, next." Right? 

Eric Feng:

Thank you, next. But it goes back to that thing that you just said, self worth, right? How much we value ourself. Because if we don't value ourself, then people won't value us. 

Nat Ho:

Yeah. 

Eric Feng:

Now I'm just curious. You have been doing this for a long time. You're an independent artist right now. You're on your own. Own resources and everything. And recently, if you guys don't know, he was on this FOMO, right? What's the full thing that you were on this [crosstalk 00:48:09]?

Nat Ho:

No Sleep No FOMO.

Eric Feng:

No Sleep No FOMO. And it was a program by Viu.

Nat Ho:

Viu.

Eric Feng:

Right?

Nat Ho:

Which is like kind of a paid app kind of.

Eric Feng:

I mean, basically to watch [crosstalk 00:48:21].

Nat Ho:

Yeah, it's one of those up and coming streaming apps, right?

Eric Feng:

Yeah. No, but you get a lot of exposure on that.

Nat Ho:

Yeah.

Eric Feng:

You're on your own, but you still get a lot of exposure. What's your strategy now? How do you do it?

Nat Ho:

Well, honestly, I don't really know. Well, okay. I think ... Because ultimately it's a people business, right?

Eric Feng:

Yes.

Nat Ho:

People need to like working with you. Right? I think as long as ... I just treat people how I would want to be treated. Yeah. I mean, I don't bother [inaudible 00:48:54] or whatever. Because I think the stupidest thing anybody can do ... Because being an artist is kind of like being a stock market. Right? There are cycles. Sometimes you're up, sometimes you're down. 

Eric Feng:

Yes, yes, yes.

Nat Ho:

When you're down and you're mean to people-

Eric Feng:

People remember, right?

Nat Ho:

People remember. People can forget what you do, but they always remember how you made them feel. Yeah. 

Eric Feng:

Well said.

Nat Ho:

Like I think generally, when I go on set, I want it to be an enjoyable experience for everybody. Like I said, people buy people. Right? So if they have an enjoyable experience working with you, they will want to work with you again.

Eric Feng:

Work with you again.

Nat Ho:

Yeah. 

Eric Feng:

Is that how it happened? These people, the production, they have worked with you before?

Nat Ho:

Yeah. Yeah. 

Eric Feng:

There you go. It's all about relationships.

Nat Ho:

It is all about relationships. And this is something that can only be built like over many years. Over time. And so you need to be consistent. There are some people that are nicer to people who can help them and not so nice to other people who they think are not useful.

Eric Feng:

Yes, yes, yes.

Nat Ho:

But sometimes those people actually get ahead in life. 

Eric Feng:

Yeah, [crosstalk 00:49:56]

Nat Ho:

Because remember, right? I mean, I would have a lot more respect for you if, let's say, you are a bitch to everybody. Then people who, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, this person is like that." And nice to everybody. The trick is really consistency. 

Eric Feng:

Be authentic.

Nat Ho:

Yeah, be authentic. People can accept that. I mean, I have friends who are really direct and all that. If people who don't know them, "Oh, this person is a bitch." Right? 

Eric Feng:

Yeah. The consistency is congruent.

Nat Ho:

But they are consistent and I would appreciate friends like that, as well. Because I know that whatever comes out of their mouth is not bull-

Eric Feng:

Got it. You see the people watching this, right, they are the [inaudible 00:50:35] entertainment industry. They're in the business industry. Right? I mean, if you think about it, business and entertainment is two businesses, right?

Nat Ho:

It is. I mean, there are a lot of transferable skills. In business, as well, you are still dealing with people.

Eric Feng:

Yeah, exactly.

Nat Ho:

Right? And you still need to be consistent. Because only when you're consistent, then people know what your brand is.

Eric Feng:

Consistent in terms of the story, who are you? Right? 

Nat Ho:

Who are you?

Eric Feng:

What's your value? What makes you different? So that's one. Any other tips for them in terms of booting their exposure? Becoming highly sought after, that could be more well known, could be more well-loved, be more well-respected. They'll sit down with you and ask you for some advice, especially being in this media industry for so long. What would be some two to three things, tips, that you can give that to help them?

Nat Ho:

I think consistency also, not just in the things you do, but if, let's say, they want to build a brand on social media, for example, consistency is also really important. Because I mean, if people are following you, they want to come by and see your fresh content. Right?

Eric Feng:

Yeah. 

Nat Ho:

You need to be consistent with that, as well. Because if, let's say, maybe you update like five posts in one day and then you stop updating for like three weeks. And then suddenly you put one post, people are going to be gone before that. Because there's so much noise in the world. So much things screaming for our attention, right? I mean, people are going to be distracted. "Oh, airplane."

Eric Feng:

Nice. So being consistent in terms of who you are to the world. But also being consistent in your social media content posts.

Nat Ho:

Yeah, I mean, let's say purely from a strategic business point of view, that consistency is valuable.

Eric Feng:

Perfect. Any other tips? Any other thing that we can do? Relationships? Like who do we need to make friends with? Even though like you say, we should not just make friends to go on and get something out of it, right?

Nat Ho:

Well. I think just be open. Because there's always things that you can learn from everybody. But I think also, be very careful about the company that you keep.

Eric Feng:

Okay.

Nat Ho:

I mean, I read somewhere that, show me five of your closest friends and I can show you your future.

Eric Feng:

Well said. Well said.

Nat Ho:

Yeah. 

Eric Feng:

So hang out with the right people. Can I almost say that, hang out with the people that you would love to become?

Nat Ho:

I would say hang out with people that are smarter than you. 

Eric Feng:

I like that. There's a saying ... We are like super spewing quotes. I think this whole show, right, we're just give quotes after quotes. The quote is like this, if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room. I like that one. Very nice. Hang out with people that are smarter than you, wiser than you, more accomplished than you so that you can learn to be like them, right? And lift you up. Tell us-

Nat Ho:

Yup. Well, then again, based on that theory, right, if you're the smartest person in the room, you should leave, then-

Eric Feng:

No, no, no-

Nat Ho:

... then you're hanging gout with people that are smarter than you, then nobody want to hang out with you. 

Eric Feng:

Then it comes from the point of your mentorship. 

Nat Ho:

Yeah.

Eric Feng:

I mean, are you like [inaudible 00:53:23] enough that ... say like-

Nat Ho:

Well, just ask people to be your mentor. I think people are afraid to ask permission.

Eric Feng:

Oh, my gosh. I can repeat that theme, you're right. Yeah. [crosstalk 00:53:34]

Nat Ho:

Yeah. Just ask for it. If it's something that you want, ask people about it. I think a lot of this [inaudible 00:53:39] because they obviously would have to have to go through ... to get to where they are.

Eric Feng:

Yes.

Nat Ho:

Right. If somebody comes from a place of genuine wanting to learn, then ... and they ask them, "Hey, how do I do this?" 

Eric Feng:

Correct.

Nat Ho:

I believe most successful people are more than happy [crosstalk 00:54:01]

Eric Feng:

Want to pay it forward.

Nat Ho:

Because an important thing to note is that most successful people ... I would say all successful people have an abundance mindset. They're not of the mindset whereby if I share this with you, you're going to encroach on my territory.

Eric Feng:

Yeah. [inaudible 00:54:16] two tactics that I keep the last [crosstalk 00:54:19].

Nat Ho:

Those are the wannabes. 

Eric Feng:

And these are the people who are not staying in a career.

Nat Ho:

No, no. They may be achievers, but they are not leaders. And it's not for long term. So that's why the mental blue print is really important. Somebody was really successful, I truly believe that if you genuinely ask them from a sincere place, they will be more than happy to be your mentor.

Eric Feng:

Very nice.

Nat Ho:

Yeah.

Eric Feng:

We spoke so much about your story. We spoke a lot about tactics, right? In terms of booting our exposure. Tell us a little bit about your business. I mean, Nat is in the business of bio-hacking. Tell us more about that. Something different about you.

Nat Ho:

Okay. 

Eric Feng:

A different aspect of you.

Nat Ho:

Well, maybe I will share a little bit of what my entrepreneurship should be, right?

Eric Feng:

[crosstalk 00:55:04]

Nat Ho:

I like eating.

Eric Feng:

Oh, really? No.

Nat Ho:

A lot of my business kind of deals with F&B. About two years ago, I started this traditional brick and mortar business.

Eric Feng:

Brick and mortar business. Yep.

Nat Ho:

Right? Which was called Love Bento. And I mean, that has since closed in September, because our lease ended and they want to do fresh entire concept. But having said that, there were a lot of valuable lessons I learned from there. And then after that, I tried ... what you call it? The franchise model.

Eric Feng:

Yes.

Nat Ho:

Which was Bobii Frutii, which is a bubble tea from Taiwan and Say Chiizu, which was the cheese toast.

Eric Feng:

Is that the thing though, that stretch ... Oh, that was from you. Oh, my God.

Nat Ho:

Yeah. Yeah, I'm just a small shareholder in that one.

Eric Feng:

We saw that, yeah. 

Nat Ho:

But I mean, it was interesting. Because by working with different people and on these different models, I learned different things.

Eric Feng:

Yes, okay. 

Nat Ho:

About business and myself, as well. And then it's always about food. Because I think food is something that is very innate to the human condition, right? We depend on food for survival.

Eric Feng:

Sure. Correct.

Nat Ho:

Yeah, food makes me kind of [inaudible 00:56:15].

Eric Feng:

He is salivating right.

Nat Ho:

It makes me happy.

Eric Feng:

Food makes you happy. 

Nat Ho:

Now the recent one is actually a network marketing model. 

Eric Feng:

Okay.

Nat Ho:

Which, to be very honest, initially I had my reservations. But having done it for a while and understanding the heart of the company, I began to appreciate, actually, it's a really elegant business model. And especially when you're married with technology nowadays. I mean, some of the main benefits was the fact that I don't need to worry about shipping, inventory, warehousing fulfillment. I don't need to worry about paying staff salaries and all that. Because, I mean, everybody's commission-based.

Eric Feng:

Correct. 

Nat Ho:

Based on the referral fees and stuff. I think it's a pretty elegant business model if you do it correctly. I think a lot of people are turned off from it, because of really overly pushy salespeople and stuff. But for me, I believe in leading with education. And so this brings me back to the point of the product, which is like [inaudible 00:57:17] ketones. And it is fascinating to me, because it's kind of in the area of bio-hacking.

Eric Feng:

Yeah, it's not like the word bio-hacking.

Nat Ho:

Bio-hacking. Which is basically trying to squeeze out the most optimum performance from your human body. And a lot of that actually is in the ... falls within the realm of nutrition. I think we are in a society whereby we work really long hours. People are tired, they don't have energy. And their nutrition is not always the best. I mean, sometimes you grab food, because it's convenient. Not because it's nutritious.

Eric Feng:

That's true. 

Nat Ho:

And the human body is an amazing machine. But if you don't treat it right, it's not going to run at it's optimum.

Eric Feng:

Agreed.

Nat Ho:

So that's why I think this is really important for a lot of people.

Eric Feng:

Tell us a little bit about ... Because I think we had a conversation about that and you opened my mind. Do you mind giving us a cliff note version of what's ketones and how does it help us?

Nat Ho:

Okay. Basically, when we're all born, we are born in a state of ketosis. Which is a fat burning state, right? We rely on fat as our primary source of fuel, actually. And even a mother's breast milk contains ketones. Ketones is basically what your body ... like when you burn, your liver converts fat cells into ketones. 

Eric Feng:

Correct.

Nat Ho:

You have more energy. And your body can only function on carbs, proteins, and fats as these primary sources. 

Eric Feng:

Converts energy.

Nat Ho:

And then it's converted to two sources of energy, glucose and ketones. Which is what your brain can use. I mean, generally a lot of people think that, "Okay, [inaudible 00:59:11] ketones." They kind of treat it as a fat loss supplement. Which yes, while it is effective in that way, but that is not the primary thing. The primary function really is as a brain fuel. It's an incredible brain fuel that gives you great energy. You have better mental clarity and focus. You know sometimes if you have a really heavy carb meal, you just get this brain fog, right, and you just feel sleepy and all that. It gives you amazing mental clarity and focus and better mood and better sleep. And this is really important in our society nowadays, because we have to do so many things within a day. I mean, even as an entrepreneur and sometimes the business around is on top of my filming, I really need energy.

Eric Feng:

Yes.

Nat Ho:

So I came to it for the fat loss aspect of that, because I had to lose weight really quickly for a role. But I stayed because of these other amazing benefits that I got from it. 

Eric Feng:

And Nat built quite a community. That was how I got to know this whole keto community. What was your central philosophy when it comes to building communities?

Nat Ho:

Again, I think it comes back to resonating with your highest purpose. And it was the intention that I put out there. Because if my intention was just to make sales, then it becomes transactional. 

Eric Feng:

Exactly. Yup. 

Nat Ho:

But my intention was, "This is good ... I want more people to know."

Eric Feng:

So you came from wanting to help people [inaudible 01:00:32].

Nat Ho:

Yeah. And it comes from a place of wanting to create value. Because it's such a new product and I think even with regards to the keto diet and all that, there's a lot of misinformation out there. There's a lot of people that confuse Atkins diet with the keto diet, which by the way, they are two completely separately different things. But yeah, when it comes from a place of, "I want to give you this value, I want to give you this education." You make your own ... I'm giving you the knowledge, laying it out on the table, and you make your own decision.

Eric Feng:

You know the same ... another nice quote, that the amount of money you make is the market's feedback of your value.

Nat Ho:

Oh, that's nice.

Eric Feng:

Nice, right? I love how you say it, that you don't really worry about the money. Money's just a feedback. An energy. It's a feedback of the energy of how much energy you put into the world. 

Nat Ho:

Yes. 

Eric Feng:

And I guess that's how you build community. And that's how you guys can build your community. From an angle, not wanting validation, which I learned it from you. Not from an angle wanting to profit from your community, but always starting from caring. 

Nat Ho:

Yes. What value do you create in this world?

Eric Feng:

Love it. 

Nat Ho:

Yeah, yeah.

Eric Feng:

I love it. And when you define yourself by the value that you give the world, then the validation is a non-issue. 

Nat Ho:

Yup.

Eric Feng:

Because that's not what you're asking for.

Nat Ho:

Yup.

Eric Feng:

Nat, in closing, what would be an advice that you would give to people watching this interview right now? How can they have the best year ever? 

Nat Ho:

I think if you want to have the best year ever, you need to remember to connect with yourself. Something I learned in recent years is the concept of self-care. I think we are too hard on ourselves sometimes. Be kind to yourself, even if it's something like taking five extra minutes to do your hair, even. Make yourself feel good in the morning. Start your day right. And be kind to yourself, that means also eat right, treat your body right. It works really hard for you. And treat your brain right. Read the right things, talk to the right people. Keep learning. Don't stop moving, because when you stop moving, you die. 

Eric Feng:

That's a good one. I love it. Self-care.

Nat Ho:

Self-care.

Eric Feng:

Yeah, I can care a lot about everyone else, but ourselves.

Nat Ho:

Yeah, it starts from within. Because if your needs are not fulfilled, then you're just going to run empty if you try to give to the world when you're not fulfilled inside. 

Eric Feng:

I love this. 

Nat Ho:

Yeah.

Eric Feng:

So ladies and gentlemen, this is Nat Ho. It's been a very huge pleasure spending time with him. I hope you enjoyed yourself, as well. If you guys want to stay in touch with Nat, you're curious to know more about bio-hacking, I'm going to put the link in the bio. So go check him out. Go check out everything that he's talking about. And do support him in all his other creative work. Not because you like him only, but because it supports a message that if you ... I resonate a lot. Which is all of us have value in this world. And instead of trying to criticize a person's expression of value, why not celebrate it? And then we will celebrate yours, as well. When it comes to your world, your time to showcase your talent to the world. 

            If you've enjoyed this interview, I've many, many more interesting personalities, many, many more interesting, highly sought after personalities that I love to introduce to you and I look forward to bringing you more people in a show called, #HighlySoughtAfter.

            Thank you so much for listening to the entire interview. I trust that it was valuable to you. Now, it would mean the world to me if you could write me a review. So, who knows? Your review may be featured in the very next episode. What are you waiting for? Go, go write a review now.

            #HighlySoughtAfter.